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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Boris has nailed colours to mast

613 replies

Ridcully82 · 23/03/2022 12:41

On gender transition at PMQs:" biology overwhelmingly important", preceded by urging respect for those feeling they need to transition. Sounded calm, respectful,and kinda where we were on course before the TRA actions.

OP posts:
MyLittlePhonyPony · 24/03/2022 13:51

Yes, very telling @Theeyeballsinthefuckingsky how different the tone is.
Read the room(or thread, as it were)

tabbycatstripy · 24/03/2022 13:52

'So you find yourself on the same side as the daily fail and Boris Johnson and that doesn’t make you question your stance?

Yikes on all the bikes'

This is completely irrational. The Daily Mail reports stuff. Sometimes I agree with its editorial positions and sometimes I don't. Johnson has political positions and sometimes I agree with them and sometimes I don't.

People who habitually say 'yikes', however, I hardly ever agree with.

LondonWolf · 24/03/2022 13:54

I'll vote Tory on the back of this.

I have no respect whatsoever for those who have been sucked into parroting this ideology whether through cowardice or stupidity. I cannot bring myself to actually vote for such people to actually be in charge. It's impossible.

LondonWolf · 24/03/2022 14:07

@SomePosters

So you find yourself on the same side as the daily fail and Boris Johnson and that doesn’t make you question your stance?

Yikes on all the bikes

Of course I question my stance. Because I think critically and examine all issues from as many angles as possible before making my decisions. Do you? I think it's far more limited to dismiss an idea or view out of hand, without any kind of analysis just because you're not supposed to like where it came from.
Zillamop · 24/03/2022 14:09

For me, this is definitely a reason to vote Tory.

Fairislefandango · 24/03/2022 14:15

So you find yourself on the same side as the daily fail and Boris Johnson and that doesn’t make you question your stance?

That is such an asinine argument. There's no 'side'. There are issues. Anyone whose opinion about an issue is determined by who else agrees with it is a weak-minded fool. If a politician you generally dislike or disagree with supports a cause that's important to you, do you decide the cause must be bad? No of course not. So why would you expect people to do the same in reverse?

Fairislefandango · 24/03/2022 14:17

Sorry, that's not the reverse, it's the same Grin

For the reverse - if there's a politician you really like who's done great things, but then they support something you strongly disagree with, do you start supporting that thing? Presumably not.

tabbycatstripy · 24/03/2022 14:19

'Anyone whose opinion about an issue is determined by who else agrees with it is a weak-minded fool.'

This. There is nobody in the world I admire so much that their opinion alone makes up my mind. Who are these heroes? Surely no-one can seriously say to themselves, 'I don't know why I think this, but Anneliese Dodds said it so it must be true.'

MyLittlePhonyPony · 24/03/2022 14:20

It reminds me of the way children follow fads and friendships in primary school.
You know, sort of all follow the same thing regardless of personal taste. If so and so falls out with whatshisface no one is allowed to talk to him.

Can't work out if it's more primal behaviour so obviously children have less of a filter, or a development thing or what. Children tend to grow out of it.

As I said, I would have once fell prey to that kind of 'logic' but I think a little corner of yourself must go quietly away and whirr on your own conclusions. You just need to be a bit brave to examine them.

ChiefInspectorParker · 24/03/2022 15:30

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VestofAbsurdity · 24/03/2022 15:33

@SomePosters

So you find yourself on the same side as the daily fail and Boris Johnson and that doesn’t make you question your stance?

Yikes on all the bikes

I can't take anyone seriously who refers to the Daily Mail as the daily fail nor one who clearly has the critical thinking skills, logic and open mindedness of a lump of wood.

Funnily enough I question all the time, it's how you learn and develop, do you?

EthelTheAardvark · 24/03/2022 15:36

@Nightlystroll

We know Boris is a habitual liar. Kier Starmer however is not,

Out of interest, how do we know what Keir Starmer is? He is only been in politics 7 years and the only position he's held is immigration and brexit - where he was a hardly a stunning success, was he? And he seems to have rowed back a lot on things he supported Corbyn over. So how truthful is he really?

Starmer has been in public life for a long time, and was very much respected when he was DPP.
FOJN · 24/03/2022 16:12

I cringe looking back at the smug Guardian-reader I was.

Me too. I'm embarrassed by the arrogance and righteousness of my 2015 self. This issue and several others have been a real education for me. What I see now is the left blaming the right for stoking the culture wars when in fact the right are resisting a cultural revolution the left insist we need. I'm worried the backlash will take us into right wing extremism and I mean genuine extremism not the kind of mainstream right wing views which too many on the left label fascist as a way of shaming anyone who votes for a mainstream right leaning party.

fifteentoes · 24/03/2022 16:47

@Theeyeballsinthefuckingsky

Expanding the definition of women to include men, and on the basis of their own declaration which is what Labour unacceptably want to do, destroys any hope of evidence based policy making

I get that. So are you saying it IS more important than whether women can eat, heat their homes and feed their children?

Want to tackle issues around woman’s pay or violence against women or the under representation of women in politics or womens poverty or improving woman’s health? How do you do that when you don’t know if you counting biological women or including men who feel like women? Whose testimony are you listening too - biological womens or men who feel like women?

Well one way you do it is by tackling pay, violence, political representation, poverty and health generally. Women are a subset of people, so the government policies that affect people generally, without being gender-specific, affect women. Less funding for the NHS means women, along with men, get worse cancer care, longer A&E waiting times etc. etc. Weakening of trade unions and deregulation of workplace rights means workers generally - some of whom will be women - get paid less.

Yes, there is a then a whole set of sex-specific issues that of course one wants the government to manage properly, and I get the frustration at having to argue about the very existence of sex in the first place, and why that's a huge problem. But it doesn't negate the general structural economic problems that affect everybody except the wealthy, regardless of what sex they are. The Tories hope that it will divert your attention from those though, and they appear to be right.

fifteentoes · 24/03/2022 16:52

@Nightlystroll

We know Boris is a habitual liar. Kier Starmer however is not,

Out of interest, how do we know what Keir Starmer is? He is only been in politics 7 years and the only position he's held is immigration and brexit - where he was a hardly a stunning success, was he? And he seems to have rowed back a lot on things he supported Corbyn over. So how truthful is he really?

Sorry let's get real here.

Anyone with any experience within the Labour party can tell you that Keir Starmer is an ABSOLUTE habitual liar. It's the only way he became leader. He has no sliver of personal integrity whatsoever.

It's one reason why, despite everything I've said in this thread, I won't be voting for him.

tabbycatstripy · 24/03/2022 16:53

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tabbycatstripy · 24/03/2022 16:55

Well, there we are then. If we can't trust Starmer anyway, why would he be better for kids?

MyLittlePhonyPony · 24/03/2022 16:55

But it doesn't negate the general structural economic problems that affect everybody except the wealthy, regardless of what sex they are. The Tories hope that it will divert your attention from those though, and they appear to be right.

And what practical solutions will Labour do that will actually help solve those problems?

Because in my experience in education, Labour is very good at putting ideological expectations in, but not so good at putting the structure or funding in to support those expectations. Thus putting the work that they should have done restructuring on others(teachers, heads, parents etc)

I'm not saying conservatives haven't caused me problems, because they have. It's just that people don't wax lyrical about what they do when it's ineffective or a mess so much.

So I would need some hard evidence that labour actually do what they say on the tin in other areas, because actually for all the 'Education, education, education' guff Labour have left a legacy that has started many crisis in education.

Dinosauria · 24/03/2022 17:10

I think the question I needed to ask myself was this. If Labour were erasing the words, spaces, and opportunities of any other minority, would I still vote for them?

If they were supporting FGM because the families and children thought it was what they wanted

MyLittlePhonyPony · 24/03/2022 17:28

The fgm point is interesting, because it really wasn't that long ago when liberalism meant fgm was accepted by professionals at school as 'cultural tradition' and so it wasn't challenged.

Just a good example of how 'progressive values' of accepting all the ways others' live, aren't always benign and can result in harm to the vulnerable.

Iwassonaive · 24/03/2022 18:01

@MyLittlePhonyPony

Sorry, one more thing. (Thread hog. Pink oink)

I think the question I needed to ask myself was this. If Labour were erasing the words, spaces, and opportunities of any other minority, would I still vote for them?

My honest answer was no. So I let this go on so long because of my own internal misogyny. Now I've realise that it's time to stand up for myself, women and girls.

The anti-semitism row was a reason also last time not to support them.
MyLittlePhonyPony · 24/03/2022 19:09

The anti-semitism row was a reason also last time not to support them.

Yes, I must admit I was out of the country last election and didn't quite get what the deal was.
News sources were rather limited where I was but I'd be interested to know how the media in the UK handled it.

Slothtoes · 24/03/2022 19:31

FFS. Please don’t give your votes away solely on the back of one insinuation.
I’ll believe that that incompetent, morally bankrupt shitweasel is serious when he uses his inexplicably massive Parliamentary majority to actually repeal the GRA. Until then, we’re no safer than we were before politically, self iD could be brought back in by anyone and I still feel politically homeless.

Deliriumoftheendless · 24/03/2022 19:37

@SomePosters

So you find yourself on the same side as the daily fail and Boris Johnson and that doesn’t make you question your stance?

Yikes on all the bikes

Are you against gay people being able to marry because it was brought in by the Tories under Cameron?

I mean the guy was a massive bellend but I still think it was the right thing to do. Yikes! I must be a Tory now! Oh noes!

MyLittlePhonyPony · 24/03/2022 19:43

FFS. Please don’t give your votes away solely on the back of one insinuation.

Don't worry, the conservatives won my vote by default previously.

But I consider my vote a 'stall' to buy time to row it all back. And again, realistically, many of the current cabinet shockers are unlikely to last much longer.

Though cockroaches and Michael Gove seem to be able to survive anything.

I'm sure that's where the similarity ends Wink

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