Boris has nailed colours to mast

[Ridcully82]

On gender transition at PMQs:" biology overwhelmingly important", preceded by urging respect for those feeling they need to transition. Sounded calm, respectful,and kinda where we were on course before the TRA actions.

t's much more important to make sure they won't have to see a transwoman in a changing room, than that they can eat, heat their homes and feed their children

That thing sailing over your head is the point.

• If female resources, services, spaces, even their ability to be identified as a group in law with protections, is eroded and removed as it is being

• if it is now socially acceptable to exclude females from spaces, accept that some of them are denied access and this is ok for the crime of having challenges and issues based on their biology that are incompatible with male freedom of self expression and choice

• if females are not allowed to mention their biology because male people find it too upsetting, and the impact on females as a result is seen as worth it so long as those male people aren't offended and this is considered ok

.... how the actual fuck do you think we even talk about never mind protect the women who can't heat their homes, can't feed their kids, can't escape life threatening violence and abuse, are living in poverty with kids they can't walk away from after a male partner has, can't work because of childcare responsibilities, are trying to provide care for other family members....?

You know, the group that always get the shitty end of the stick when hard times come?

The TW in the changing room is not a separate issue, it is part and parcel of the whole thing. If you care about the needs of women ffs stop supporting erasing them in law and normalising their subordination to male people while at the same time supporting a political conceit that sex isn't really a thing.

I guess the thing is, all my life I was told labour was the moral choice, or the lib Dems. That I should vote for them as my moral duty. I was told they did xyz for the poor, disabled etc. and Tories were evil and would actively hurt anyone but the rich.

However, now I'm being told that supporting trans rights is the moral choice and it's my duty to push for it. But I can see the harms done by this. None of which are acknowledged.

I'm just wondering what possible harms or unpalatable truths I've not been alerted to because I have believed without too much investigation that labour is best for the country.

And like I say, I'm in education. I can name countless harms done to the sector. But they're not just harms that happened in the conservatives time. In fact, some of the far reaching run off the railroads out of control issues we have in education were started by Labour.

I just think it's interesting because I used to parrot how labour were right and Tories wrong and, although I read manifestos I didn't do a lot of critical thinking after the fact. I tended to give labour a pass, act of God can't be helped kind of thing.

And actually now I reflect I'm not sure they're what I thought. But I am so wedded to the idea that Tories are bad I still struggle to give them kudos when they do something good. I see a lot of myself in the posters who state they'll never vote Tory but I asked myself why and couldn't come up with anything really concrete that wasn't also dependent on other factors like individual ministers, global events etc.

It's like it's a litany I have been taught to repeat and I feel like I've started to question it and the wheels come off.

Parallels are obvious to me.

@Artichokeleaves

t's much more important to make sure they won't have to see a transwoman in a changing room, than that they can eat, heat their homes and feed their children

That thing sailing over your head is the point.

• If female resources, services, spaces, even their ability to be identified as a group in law with protections, is eroded and removed as it is being

• if it is now socially acceptable to exclude females from spaces, accept that some of them are denied access and this is ok for the crime of having challenges and issues based on their biology that are incompatible with male freedom of self expression and choice

• if females are not allowed to mention their biology because male people find it too upsetting, and the impact on females as a result is seen as worth it so long as those male people aren't offended and this is considered ok

.... how the actual fuck do you think we even talk about never mind protect the women who can't heat their homes, can't feed their kids, can't escape life threatening violence and abuse, are living in poverty with kids they can't walk away from after a male partner has, can't work because of childcare responsibilities, are trying to provide care for other family members....?

You know, the group that always get the shitty end of the stick when hard times come?

The TW in the changing room is not a separate issue, it is part and parcel of the whole thing. If you care about the needs of women ffs stop supporting erasing them in law and normalising their subordination to male people while at the same time supporting a political conceit that sex isn't really a thing.

I agree with everything you've said. Females will continue to be disadvantaged because of their biology no matter how many males identify as women which is why we must insist on legal recognition of women (the female sort) as a sex class.

I've been thinking about how women do not use the power of our numbers to make sure politicians value our vote. If every single woman were to vote Conservative in protest over women's rights we would decimate all the parties who claim to be confused about what a woman is. We would only need to do it once and ALL parties would know you ignore women at your peril, we would have shown them we have power. In fact we would prehaps only need to tell pollsters we intended to vote conservative to have an impact. We are caught up worrying about what 5 more years of the Conservatives will bring for those already struggling but if we lose legal recognition of women as a sex class then women will struggle for generations.

Stopping laws being passed is easier than repealing those already made.

It's no coincidence it is the inevitable result of our female socialisation.

Can you imagine any other group agonising about standing up for themselves because another group might be temporarily neglected or suffer indirectly as a result?

If, let's say, a law was proposed to curfew men after 10pm by all the left leaning parties do you think that men would dither about worrying about what voting Conservative might do to the poor, disabled or women?
Would they fuck! They'd be crossing their X to Tory candidate quick as they could.

But obviously that, although there is plenty of evidence it would impact crime figures and increase safety would never happen because men will vote with self interest. Political parties have done this to women for years though. Yes, we'll get to women's rights but just sort out x y z first. Honestly we'll get there. And they never do.

Well mummy needs to stop making sure everyone else has their dinner cut up, changed, blown on and do the dinner song with tambourines.

For once, she needs to set the tone and eat her own dinner first whilst it's still hot.

We need to sort this whilst it is still salvageable.

We're not everyone's mum.

Yes, people accept without question that men will act in their own interests, and they abuse women for acting in theirs.

Corbyn has always been critical of the EU, the ironic thing perhaps is that if he had followed his own line of thought rather than tow the line he would have probably had a fair amount of support.

Being anti-EU, or at least anti Uk being part of the EU, was absolutely normative Labour/left wing politics until about 5 minutes ago.

Convincing people that being pro-globalism and pro movement of labour is the only acceptable left wing position, and any other POV is a result of some kind of alt-right bigotry, has been one of the biggest cons and greatest triumphs of liberal capitalists in recent years. I am sure they are laughing all the way to the bank.

The rhetoric that somehow Labour MPs are the ones who "really care" while Tory MPs are all just out for themselves is completely ridiculous. Parties are not people, they don't care about anything, they reflect the thinking and concerns of their members. The fact that there are a lot of Labour MPs that are convinced that they have some kind of special hold on ideological purity doesn't make them nicer people, it just makes them arrogant ineffective MPs who won't listen to the concerns of those they are actually supposed to be representing.

Political pragmatism is not a moral failing, like all qualities it can become one in some situations, but it's also it's how parties can understand what the electorate is telling them they care about.

@MyLittlePhonyPony

I guess the thing is, all my life I was told labour was the moral choice, or the lib Dems. That I should vote for them as my moral duty. I was told they did xyz for the poor, disabled etc. and Tories were evil and would actively hurt anyone but the rich.

However, now I'm being told that supporting trans rights is the moral choice and it's my duty to push for it. But I can see the harms done by this. None of which are acknowledged.

I'm just wondering what possible harms or unpalatable truths I've not been alerted to because I have believed without too much investigation that labour is best for the country.

And like I say, I'm in education. I can name countless harms done to the sector. But they're not just harms that happened in the conservatives time. In fact, some of the far reaching run off the railroads out of control issues we have in education were started by Labour.

I just think it's interesting because I used to parrot how labour were right and Tories wrong and, although I read manifestos I didn't do a lot of critical thinking after the fact. I tended to give labour a pass, act of God can't be helped kind of thing.

And actually now I reflect I'm not sure they're what I thought. But I am so wedded to the idea that Tories are bad I still struggle to give them kudos when they do something good. I see a lot of myself in the posters who state they'll never vote Tory but I asked myself why and couldn't come up with anything really concrete that wasn't also dependent on other factors like individual ministers, global events etc.

It's like it's a litany I have been taught to repeat and I feel like I've started to question it and the wheels come off.

Parallels are obvious to me.

This, exactly. I cringe looking back at the smug Guardian-reader I was.

@Alltheprettyseahorses

The idea on this thread seems to be that if you really care about women, it's much more important to make sure they won't have to see a transwoman in a changing room, than that they can eat, heat their homes and feed their children

What would Labour do to improve my life as a single parent full-time unpaid carer? The current shadow chancellor has repeatedly thrown out divisive rhetoric. There would be no extra money for people in my situation. Currently all I hear from them is 'working families' said approx 4 times per sentence but my 70+ hours a week wouldn't count to them, nor would the people I care for who are profoundly physically disabled after a lifetime of hard manual work. Labour haven't led on free school meals, only jumped on the bandwagon AFTER the Tories caved in to Marcus Rashford. Labour said virtually nothing about the removal of the £20 UC uplift and were completely silent about those on legacy benefits getting it at all. So please don't insult me with fairy tales about how Labour are better. They're not. Cameron and Osborne, with their malice against poor people are long gone, now we have a Thatcherite Labour run by the sillier end of the privileged middle classes.

FWIW, given that Tory by-election losses have been to the LibDem protest vote and not a meaningful move to the opposition (who have even lost their deposit), I certainly don't fancy Labour's chances in an election.

This, they have been a weak and ineffective opposition.

Julia Hartley Brewer is on 🔥🔥 on this & asking every politician who comes on her show on Talk radio 'what is a women?'

It's really exposing them.

She asked Rishi this morning who was totally unprepared and avoided an answer. Just said 'I agree with Boris.'

They're going to need to get better prepared.

Convincing people that being pro-globalism and pro movement of labour is the only acceptable left wing position, and any other POV is a result of some kind of alt-right bigotry, has been one of the biggest cons and greatest triumphs of liberal capitalists in recent years. I am sure they are laughing all the way to the bank.

Thank you. I was surprised by Labours position on globalisation, I always considered it a capitalists wet dream. It works for those who already have money. Those who don't have been persuaded its the future and the morally superior position.

@MalagaNights

Julia Hartley Brewer is on 🔥🔥 on this & asking every politician who comes on her show on Talk radio 'what is a women?'

It's really exposing them.

She asked Rishi this morning who was totally unprepared and avoided an answer. Just said 'I agree with Boris.'

They're going to need to get better prepared.

I'll take I agree with Boris lol. That's how bad it is.

Iwas ha me too

And given the initial wording was quite woolly with it’s overwhelmingly stuck in we’re really getting the pebbles.

Still it’s better than the alternative and the outright denial of biological reality.

The fact that there are a lot of Labour MPs that are convinced that they have some kind of special hold on ideological purity doesn't make them nicer people, it just makes them arrogant ineffective MPs who won't listen to the concerns of those they are actually supposed to be representing.

Very true. Appreciating many posts on here

This was me ! I mailed the Tory party and Boris on Monday - sent them the link to the cass report and the hospital coverage article in the telegraph and asked they why it was happening during a Tory government.

Gonna look bad in two years when the rapes and the de transitioner start their legal actions against the state.

Mail Boris and The Tories too!
You can mail Labour but I haven’t got a reply in five years on the subject, so good luck with that.

Remember women are acceptable collateral damage for the gender identity movement. They do not care about biological women.

I think “I agree with Boris” will soon become the new “I agree with Nick”
If I was Tory merch HQ, I’d get working on the t shirts and mugs immediately

I have to question as well the tactic of trying to get labour to listen rather than voting against them.
I mean, it hasn't worked, has it, it's not like they haven't had the opportunity to hear the concerns. In some cases they are actually shutting down women raising their voices.

So why are we continuing to support them?

If Labour did this with any other area you felt strongly about, schools, the NHS whatever, would you still be going along with it and voting them in the vain hope they'd listen once in power?

They're not even in power and, as someone said upthread have doubled down with quite an extremist stance.

If they get it their stance won't become more moderate. It will become more extreme. They only advertise the stuff they think is a vote winner. When they get in then they make the changes they want to that are less vote swingers.

I don't want to find out what extreme things they're holding back.
No thank you.

Sorry, one more thing. (Thread hog. Pink oink)

I think the question I needed to ask myself was this. If Labour were erasing the words, spaces, and opportunities of any other minority, would I still vote for them?

My honest answer was no. So I let this go on so long because of my own internal misogyny. Now I've realise that it's time to stand up for myself, women and girls.

So you find yourself on the same side as the daily fail and Boris Johnson and that doesn’t make you question your stance?

Yikes on all the bikes

@MyLittlePhonyPony

I have to question as well the tactic of trying to get labour to listen rather than voting against them. I mean, it hasn't worked, has it, it's not like they haven't had the opportunity to hear the concerns. In some cases they are actually shutting down women raising their voices.

So why are we continuing to support them?

If Labour did this with any other area you felt strongly about, schools, the NHS whatever, would you still be going along with it and voting them in the vain hope they'd listen once in power?

They're not even in power and, as someone said upthread have doubled down with quite an extremist stance.

If they get it their stance won't become more moderate. It will become more extreme. They only advertise the stuff they think is a vote winner. When they get in then they make the changes they want to that are less vote swingers.

I don't want to find out what extreme things they're holding back.
No thank you.

Completely agree

@SomePosters

So you find yourself on the same side as the daily fail and Boris Johnson and that doesn’t make you question your stance?

Yikes on all the bikes

You mean the Prime Minister and the widest read paper in the UK agree with all of us here on Mumsnet?

Oh noes! How awful! Oh waily, waily, waily!

@MarshaBradyo

The fact that there are a lot of Labour MPs that are convinced that they have some kind of special hold on ideological purity doesn't make them nicer people, it just makes them arrogant ineffective MPs who won't listen to the concerns of those they are actually supposed to be representing.

Very true. Appreciating many posts on here

Yes, indeed.

Honestly, I am always questioning. I am not closing my mind off.

But being on the same side as Boris is not the crime of the century.

Not when the other side champions the rights of rapists.

But as I said, I'm done with identity politics. I accept that I will agree with some people on some things and others on others. And I need to accept that it's healthy and natural not to agree with everyone on everything. That's just a way to shut off communication and a possible middle way.

And the middle way I'd like to pursue is ensure trans people are not discriminated against in employment, health etc. But as trans people.

Not a subset of women. Their own tailored and dignified path.

Until 5 minutes ago every knew what a fucking women was.

Funny isn’t it how TEA are always coming here ti scold women for being meeeeeean instead of going on mens message boards to scold them for transphobic & violent innit

TRA. - ffs!!

And also read on here the other day that the Mail was instrumental in pursuing justice for Stephen Lawrence.

So not all bad.

But yes, that's exactly the kind of knee jerk alignment/guilt by association thing I'm avoiding these days. So a nice illustration.