Trans athlete wins in female swimming race

[bonfireheart]

www.lbc.co.uk/news/female-swimmers-transgender-lia-thomas-podium-protest-atlanta-result/

Don't know how true this story is but wonder if the public reaction to stuff like this will become more common.

The worrying thing is that people such as @greasyshoes post this ‘gotcha’ anti scientific nonsense, repeat ad nauseum, and there will be people uneducated enough to take it on board. Then we’re faced with spectacles such as a drama student lecturing Sir Robert Winston on basic biology on question time. The disdain for women isn’t hidden.It’s in plain sight. Just a bit more effort will get us up to standards of male athletes apparently! It will be the end of women’s sport if the cheerleaders for this don’t wake up.

How do we know what proportion of any perceived male advantage is due to biology, and not society?

I suggest you go and read up on the studies on this.

You are completely failing to make any compelling points at all.

And you seem confused.

What does it matter if social expectations has meant a male may have worked on their 'strength' and it was that expectation that has meant they are stronger?

This argument looks quite ill placed when you then consider the following:

• that male has leaner muscles than females
• that male muscle has the advantage of a richer blood blend so it works more effectively than females
• that male has a different blend of musculature than a female

And the list goes on and on and on.

It does not matter one iota that there might be different social elements at play.

I notice that you have not once addressed the effect of negative sexist discrimination experienced by females from birth when it comes to sport. As a parent of of teen, I can tell you it still is very much alive and happening today.

If you want to talk about advantages that are not physiological, let's talk about the depth of the effect of that negative sexist discrimination.

But the good bit is that the drama student is roundly sniggered at across most social media and greasy's posting here is blindingly obviously lacking in any logic. We can dismiss it with common sense and the simplest of data, like the GCSE level poster above.

Such people really aren't clever. They simply believe they are and every time they try to evidence that they show how daft they actually are.

I mean, calling out Lord Winston on biology is a truly, truly stupid move. Many people will have been struck by that and may have ended up coming to an opinion when they had previously never considered the issue is at all.

More sunlight, as the saying goes.

On the other hand, and yes, we have been there and we have all done it before, but if we just keep pointing out the deficiencies of greaseballs arguments it does make it more interesting for those reading along.

Those reading who have seen this tired old trope flung out with great abandon on other social media platforms.

I mean, I am happy to start posting links to the studies and the papers. But then we almost need to have a disclaimer at the start of these threads of where to look for more information too.

Then again, I have noted that this push for 'social' factors to be the foundation for inclusion of males into female sport is being discussed on social media. The issue really is that now most pundits have to admit that there is no doubt about the male pubertal benefit. They have now swivelled to 'be kind' in a purer sense. Inclusion due to 'social' factors is literally a pure form of 'be kind'.

It is 'be kind' and include this male because he needs and deserves it even though he has all the physical advantages that we can no longer dispute. Just ... be kind.

What does it matter if social expectations has meant a male may have worked on their 'strength' and it was that expectation that has meant they are stronger?

Well it's kind of important, because social factors can be changed, whereas biological factors are much more difficult to change. If most of the difference between male and female performance is due to sexism and inequality, then that means it could potentially be fixed and women would be capable of the same athletic performances as men.

I notice that you have not once addressed the effect of negative sexist discrimination experienced by females from birth when it comes to sport. As a parent of of teen, I can tell you it still is very much alive and happening today.

I'm aware of that and I was going to mention that society and sexism have a negative impact on women's athletic performance, but held back because I was afraid that a comment like that would be misconstrued as me endorsing such sexism.

No they are not clever ( basic gcse biology is clearly lacking )and the more sunlight
the better.
I do still wonder how we got to this point though. How are some, including many women in the public eye, politicians etc. able to look at where this has taken us, and still go along with the ideology?

@greasyshoes is concerned about being seen to endorse sexism.
Where to start......

Can you imagine the outcry if the same physically disparate athletes were arranging to take part in a physically combative sport such as boxing?

So, a mtf trans boxer, competing in a heavyweight category against a natal female. The risk assessment alone, especially regarding potential dangers to the equally 'heavyweight' natal female from the mtf would be far too complicated to navigate.

I'd hope, anyway...

If most of the difference between male and female performance is due to sexism and inequality, then that means it could potentially be fixed and women would be capable of the same athletic performances as men.

Have you even bothered reading the studies? I mean really actually read the studies?

MOST OF THE DIFFERENCE?

Seriously, you are on here saying that most of the difference is not physiological when the reality is that it doesn't matter in the end.

Change the social elements and the male still has the physiological advantages. That has been shown. And that not even the reduction of testosterone can address.

Are you honestly trying to say that we just don't have enough females competing in sport and if we did that females would be beating males in sport because the females with the bodies that could beat the males have suddenly 'entered the arena'?

Or are you saying that a male who has not been encouraged into sports but then joins should be able to play against females because they have not been encouraged to build their muscles or their sporting prowess?

You do seem to think that if males and females were being raised in an utopian society that females would be right up there competing against the best males and have just as much chance as any other male at winning.

Is that what you are proposing?

If most of the difference between male and female performance is due to sexism and inequality, then that means it could potentially be fixed and women would be capable of the same athletic performances as men.

Did you read all of my post? The one where you fixated on a couple of words?

I explained the sexed reactions to improved training regimes and the persistence of a measurable difference between the sexes.

And the poster above?

Did you look at that and comprehend any if it?

If you want me to go through each part of that poster I will tackle it in some detail tomorrow. I am too busy enjoying a sunny Sunday afternoon, but would have no objection to going through the basics that any 14 year old would be expected to understand.

So, a mtf trans boxer, competing in a heavyweight category against a natal female. The risk assessment alone, especially regarding potential dangers to the equally 'heavyweight' natal female from the mtf would be far too complicated to navigate.

Well boxing is categorised by weight, so two people fighting each other are going to be a similar weight to begin with.

Boxing is a very strange and unique case though. It's a particularly violent sport and I don't think risk assessments are applicable, given the risk of injury and even death in the sport is relatively high to begin with. Ethically, I disagree with boxing and I never watch it.

Oh FFS! Seriously!

Here we now have the 'I don't like it so I won't comment on it' tactic.

There are also lots of men who are taller and broader than me. Should I have my own category in sports so I don't have to compete against tall men? What about basketball

No you compete in the category of your sex. And if you're not good enough to compete against your own sex, then you don't compete. I have no interest in watching mediocre males, who can't cut it in their own sex category, participating in women's sport in order to win. It's not brave. It's not fabulous. It's cheating, narcissistic and a total dick move.

Well boxing is categorised by weight, so two people fighting each other are going to be a similar weight to begin with.

Go and read the fucking studies!

Seriously.

A male boxing a female boxer of the same weight has an enormous % of power in their punch compared to a female boxer. And it is again, sorry to repeat it, widely now acknowledged that reducing testosterone does not reduce it enough to even be safe.

Go look up Joanne Harper, go look up the USAF study, go and look up Dr Emma Hilton and Tommy Lundberg, go and look through the World Rugby review.

You are seriously spreading dangerous misinformation .

We’re a hairs breadth from the ‘Michael phelps’ arebt we

I’m trying to find that missy Franklin/Ryan lochte comparison. Same height, same wingspan and yet lochte is half a lap quicker than Franklin. Now I wonder why that would be….

What would it take greasy ?

You won't look at a simple poster, my word isn't enough, named studies won't cut it, apparently. What would be enough information for you to accept what is, after all, the lived experience if just about all of us?

Male or female we are all fully aware that, absent illness, injury or other unusual element, from a very young age boys are faster and stronger than girls; girls are more flexible, have better balance than boys. We all know this. We all live this.

As young adults we know this. Young women have to be very aware of this at all times.

Ás we age those differences remain.

We all know this.

It is a universal lived experience.

@Theeyeballsinthefuckingsky

We’re a hairs breadth from the ‘Michael phelps’ arebt we

I’m trying to find that missy Franklin/Ryan lochte comparison. Same height, same wingspan and yet lochte is half a lap quicker than Franklin. Now I wonder why that would be….

We are nearly explicitly there eyeballs. And yes, that info graphic is a good one.

Actually I would really like greasy to make a very clear effort to explain just what he means.

Use at least two examples, just so we are absolutely clear.

The really annoying thing is that we're all right. @greasyshoes is right to say that women's sport has been separate from men's due to sexism in that it's been patronised, less visible, less funded, and women have been raised and told not to be sweaty, not to be active, not to be competitive. A woman once won an Olympic shooting competition and it was immediately made single sex so that couldn't happen again. There are women in some religious groups who get death threats if they run in public in allegedly immodest clothing. All true. And it would be naive to think none of that affects women's lifelong strength and performance.

As that sexism has been counteracted to some extent, and frankly as there is finally some money and prestige in women's sport, we have had a counter argument that the physical development of the sexes is so identical and difficult to tease apart that males can compete as women without disadvantaging women at all. That isn't true in most sports. There may be more sport events than currently exist that could be completely open and still fair. But not many.

😂 can't believe someone is trying to suggest the difference between male and female sporting performance is down to socialisation ffs. Wondering if they have ever actually done any sport in their life. Both me and my husband are competitive in a sport, we both train hard, I come from a more sporty background than he does and have taken part in sport my whole life. I tend to win more prizes than he does. Even so he could thrash me without much effort. His body is just different.

@ferretface

😂 can't believe someone is trying to suggest the difference between male and female sporting performance is down to socialisation ffs. Wondering if they have ever actually done any sport in their life. Both me and my husband are competitive in a sport, we both train hard, I come from a more sporty background than he does and have taken part in sport my whole life. I tend to win more prizes than he does. Even so he could thrash me without much effort. His body is just different.

This!!! Us women just do not try hard enough. What with my dusting, crochet, hair care, nails etc I just don’t have the inclination to be competitive. Yes it’s all about socialisation ffs.

Btw that's not to say that socialisation doesn't contribute to girls and women dropping out of sport or not being supported - just that given the same advantages and treatment, or even if women were systematically advantaged rather than disadvantaged, male people as a class will still beat women. Their advantage is in the way their bodies are built.

I've noticed lots of posts on Twitter gleefully spouting along the lines of 'women wanted equality, so suck it up' as some kind of ultimate gotcha. Fucking infuriating.

And it is important to note that there are many social aspects that did lead to women's sport being created the way it has. And there is a massive social aspect to women's disadvantages at sport.

But I gather from reading those posts that grease is also arguing that males suffer social disadvantage too. And that if all was lovely and equal and utopian there would be no need for female sport.

Also true that the best way to combat that socialisation isn't to say 'hand over everything that's currently yours'.

I'm a rower. Used to be quite high level. I've rowed in infinite numbers of women's crews, set mixed crews (ie a known number of men and women) and scratch crews where it's anyone who turns up. All have their place. But I know the difference in every single stroke, and rowing is ironically one of the sports with the smallest difference between men and women - ie it's just large rather than enormous. Males competing as women will no doubt happen but I am sure it's wrong for women.