Trans athlete wins in female swimming race

[bonfireheart]

www.lbc.co.uk/news/female-swimmers-transgender-lia-thomas-podium-protest-atlanta-result/

Don't know how true this story is but wonder if the public reaction to stuff like this will become more common.

However, I haven't seen a study which explains why men's athletic achievements are greater than women's. Everyone is just assuming it's a biological advantage, rather than due to some social factor. That's the problem.

Honestly, have you actually read any of the latest studies in to the physical sports advantages that males have?

yes or no

if so, which ones so we can all go read them and see where you are getting your information.

Sweetie, that's why I suggested a longitudinal study. Then you could measure, in part, with no psychological harm to participants, the differences in results over the time period when women started to compete in sports previously considered to be in the male domain.

Using the comparative rates of change you would get a pretty good overview of how female records changed as societal mores changed. And you would also be able to spot the time at which, in some sports, the rate of change ceased and the gap between male and female achievements became static. That, all things by then being societally more equal, would leave you with the differences accorded by sexed bodies.

You see, I didn't suggest it on a whim. This was my career.

@Midlifemusings

Better funding for sport for men and boys, more men and boys participating in sport.

If you have lots of men and boys competing in sport, and being encouraged to do so, and less women competing in sport, then of course you're going to see men and boys having better running times because the pool of men and boys is bigger to begin with.

The question is a bit like asking "Why are Americans bad at football?" It's not as if Americans have some genetic or biological factor which means they can't play football. You have less Americans playing football to begin with, it's not as well funded, hence, Americans don't perform as well as Europeans.

I am all out of fish for the time being, I am off to the shops.

Ye gods!

Now he mansplains the absolutely bleedin' obvious to us in what has to be the most obvious "I'll just pretend none of you has said any of this" manner ever seen.

Congratulations!!

Males should never compete against females in sport.

Now he mansplains the absolutely bleedin' obvious to us in what has to be the most obvious "I'll just pretend none of you has said any of this" manner ever seen.

I know. I feel like combing through all our posts and posting all the different ways we have said it. It is bizarre really....

And I wasted a bloody good explanation on him too!

Still, it's there for everyone one to read now. No harm done.

Using the comparative rates of change you would get a pretty good overview of how female records changed as societal mores changed. And you would also be able to spot the time at which, in some sports, the rate of change ceased and the gap between male and female achievements became static. That, all things by then being societally more equal, would leave you with the differences accorded by sexed bodies.

How did this study determine that society was "more equal", and when was it deemed to be "more equal"?

@Somanysocks

There was a ftm swimmer - Schuyler Bailar who swam on Harvard's NCAA Division 1 Swim Team - first on the women's team and then he was given a spot on the men's team after transitioning. While on the women's team Bailar made the National Championships and swam on a relay team with Katie Ledecky etc. Before Harvard Bailar (at age 15) Bailar was top 20 in the nation in breaststroke.

You can see Bailor's times here. Swam on the men's team only for the 2018-2019 season. www.swimcloud.com/swimmer/216547/ Bailar's times are pretty consistent across years - and didn't change much with their transition. Obviously placing / ranking changed a lot - the only information I could find on his rankings was that he finished his career in the 34% percentile of NCAA Division 1 swimmers.

What?

Oh. I see. I mean development squads, grass roots looking for girls, women to participate. I mean the ACE style funding, I mean everything from 5 - 20 years old that is different now than it was say 50 years ago. I mean EVERYTHING in and out of sport that has become more equitable between men and women, boys and girls.

As I explained, or thought I had, in that self same post.

However, I haven't seen a study which explains why men's athletic achievements are greater than women's. Everyone is just assuming it's a biological advantage, rather than due to some social factor. That's the problem.

🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣

I want a study that shows why old people aren't as good at sport. Maybe they just give up trying as they get older.

Or why adults run faster than children.

Or a study which explains why babies are smaller than 10 year olds.
We can see they are but maybe it's just socialisation. Has anyone checked??

@greasyshoes

If you look at the US, there are quite a few states that have very close to equal particpation in girl and boy sports in high school. Across the country, track and field is 488K girls to 605K boys in 2018-2019.

There is not a major disparity. Somes states have near equal participation and specific programs for girls in sport.

The bigger discriminator is parental income. Both girls and boys from higher SES homes are far more likely to play competitive sports than those from average or low income homes.

www.edweek.org/leadership/statistics-on-school-sports-how-many-students-play-sports-which-sports-do-they-play/2021/07

Forgot to include source for stats.

Oh. I see. I mean development squads, grass roots looking for girls, women to participate. I mean the ACE style funding, I mean everything from 5 - 20 years old that is different now than it was say 50 years ago. I mean EVERYTHING in and out of sport that has become more equitable between men and women, boys and girls.

While it may have become "more equitable", I think this is misleading because obviously sport for girl's does not receive the same funding or attention, and girl's aren't pushed to do sport the same way boys are. As a boy, I was pushed to play football, and do physical activity. I never saw girls being pushed the same way. And despite that, there are loads of women who are physically far stronger than I am. That can only mean biology is a small part of it.

@greasyshoes

You are wrong in your belief that there are loads of women who are physically stronger than you unless you have a disability affecting muscle strength.

Although I think you are just trolling and know very well that men are biologically stronger than women. Young kids know this.

You are wrong in your belief that there are loads of women who are physically stronger than you unless you have a disability affecting muscle strength.

You have to keep in mind that very few men are like the huge, 6'2'' muscular men you see on TV all the time. Most of us are fairly weak and flabby. I wouldn't be surprised if 50% of women were physically stronger and faster than I am.

Greasy, you forget most of us here are mothers. Many of us have sons. My ten year old sons were faster and stronger than me. You are talking complete rot.

And despite that, there are loads of women who are physically far stronger than I am. That can only mean biology is a small part of it.

No. It really doesn't mean that at all. What it does indicate though that as well as not being an elite athlete, you're also a bit lacking academically.

Oh, and in case you're visually impaired - most women are also pretty flabby and unfit. So that fact that lots a blokes are, is pretty irrelevant.

Honestly, have you actually read any of the latest studies in to the physical sports advantages that males have?

yes or no

I take it that that is a 'no' then greasy.

Good to know.

I think we have all got the message that greasy is an undersized man who just believes that just because he, along with 80 year old John Smith with the bad hip, can't beat Dina Asher Smith, that means no men can possibly be better athletes than women and if they are, it's all because us girls weren't allowed to get our pretty dresses dirty when we were playing.

I genuinely think that some men going blindly through life have no idea about the physical disparity between men and women. Because they are not subjected to the same kind of dominance, they don't see it.

Greasy, if men couldn't physically dominate women, we wouldn't live in a patriarchy.

For anybody who might be lurking, I'd ask you to consider how (even on a discussion board) actions speak louder than words.

Only observe the slippery, cherry-picking, game-playing, dismissive, obfuscatory and slyly contemptuous style of a particular poster in addressing the detailed posts of the women on MN.

Then consider for yourselves: Does this poster's actions show that they really believe in the equal value of female humans' dignity, opinions and achievements?

And then ask yourselves: If even the advocates of genderism can't suppress through their actions that they don't believe their own words when they claim the indistinguishability of males and females, why should YOU give a moment's credence to it?

I genuinely think that some men going blindly through life have no idea about the physical disparity between men and women. Because they are not subjected to the same kind of dominance, they don't see it.

Not sure what made you say that, because I have been bullied by both men and women, and also physically hurt by women in the workplace. So I believe I have been subjected to it.

Mean Girls Alert!