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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Trans athlete wins in female swimming race

387 replies

bonfireheart · 19/03/2022 11:12

www.lbc.co.uk/news/female-swimmers-transgender-lia-thomas-podium-protest-atlanta-result/

Don't know how true this story is but wonder if the public reaction to stuff like this will become more common.

OP posts:
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334bu · 20/03/2022 07:48

Maybe greasy shoes also thinks the earth is flat and you can fall off the end, as it makes about as much sense as their belief that there is no real physical difference between male and female athletes.

Soubriquet · 20/03/2022 07:53

True about childrens sports day.

My dc are in primary school, and even then, sports day is divided by sex.

For example, year 1 boys, year 1 girls.

Hercisback · 20/03/2022 08:06

I saw a twitter justification that pre transition Lia was 10 seconds behind the mens record and post transition they were 10 seconds behind the woman's wold record. I can't find it to link now.

This is the kind of statistical bollocks the TWAW crowd use.

Deliriumoftheendless · 20/03/2022 08:10

@334bu

Maybe greasy shoes also thinks the earth is flat and you can fall off the end, as it makes about as much sense as their belief that there is no real physical difference between male and female athletes.
Look, a flat circle is still round, it makes total sense that the earth is actually flat. I mean I’m standing here and the ground is flat or else I’d fall over, wouldn’t i? It’s basic science really. Times have moved on. Circles are spheres. Etc.
334bu · 20/03/2022 08:18

Times have moved on. Circles are spheres. Etc.

Grin
grey12 · 20/03/2022 08:19

@greasyshoes

Lia is noticeably taller and broader than the other swimmers.

I'm a man. Plenty of women are taller and broader than me. I have no doubts that these women could swim faster than me. Biology is pretty diverse and there are extremes at both ends of the male and female bell curves.

There are also lots of men who are taller and broader than me. Should I have my own category in sports so I don't have to compete against tall men? What about basketball?

This is an official competition. There aren't non athletic women in there Hmm so all the women will be at the top of their personal physical abilities and at the top of their university's list of best athletes
MrMrsJones · 20/03/2022 08:19

Is he sponsored by anyone?

Can we boycott the company?

334bu · 20/03/2022 08:23

Is he sponsored by anyone

Student at an Ivy League University so, unless from an extremely wealthy family, may have a swimming scholarship but no sponsorship as such.

grey12 · 20/03/2022 08:24

go.mumsnet.com/?xs=1&id=470X1554755&url=<iframe src="https://www.youtube-nocookie.com/embed/G8lgScZ0YzY" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; clipboard-write; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture" allowfullscreen>

SamphiretheStickerist · 20/03/2022 09:49

@greasyshoes

However pretty much all trans women who are athletes will beat biological female athletes. It isn't an anomaly at all. Just the reality of being biologically male.

Are you suggesting that men are stronger than women?

If you still want to discuss this I would be happy to oblige. I spent a couple of decades lecturing sport physiology and biomechanics. Ask me anything...
Helleofabore · 20/03/2022 10:07

I would also suggest in snooker that height and arm span etc have some effect.

I thought initially greasy was on the wind up, now I can see he had just used the usual poorly thought out reasons.

There are only a few sports where males don’t have an advantage. There are now studies that show male reaction times are faster because their brain processes messages from their eyes faster.

There are also lung advantages for some sports where speed is not the issue but being able to hold your body completely still and control your breathing to target is needed.

And then they have only just begun investigating the effects of menstruation.

Only a fool would propose that the main reason for women’s sport is to increase participation though.

Well duh. If women can’t win anything, why would they participate? FFS.

IamAporcupine · 20/03/2022 10:11

@SamphiretheStickerist - can I too?

I am currently having a discussion with someone (*) who argues that the physical differences between males and females are due to socialization... Confused. That we are weaker beacuse of Dysney basically. She cites Colette Dawling, who I must admit have not read. It would be great to have your input Grin

(*) she also finds 'difficult' to 'decide' what is male/female...

sanluca · 20/03/2022 10:24

@Hercisback

I saw a twitter justification that pre transition Lia was 10 seconds behind the mens record and post transition they were 10 seconds behind the woman's wold record. I can't find it to link now.

This is the kind of statistical bollocks the TWAW crowd use.

Be careful with the statistics tra's show. Will was quite highly ranked in long distance swims. Lia only swims shorter distances. Many swimmers don't like longer distances and they are also less often featured in meets so it is relatively easier to get a higher rank on long distances than it is on the shorter ones.
334bu · 20/03/2022 10:32

Statistics can be manipulated, especially as it is way easier for a swimmer to post a slow time by taking it easy than it is to smash a record, even if you have an overwhelming physical advantage.

greasyshoes · 20/03/2022 10:45

I am currently having a discussion with someone () who argues that the physical differences between males and females are due to socialization... confused. That we are weaker beacuse of Dysney basically. She cites Colette Dawling, who I must admit have not read. It would be great to have your input*

This is probably the most important point that's been raised. In research that's been done into male vs female strength and physiology, how do the studies decouple social factors from physiological factors? Boys and girls are socialised very differently. There's a huge social pressure for boys to build upper body strength, for example.

Helleofabore · 20/03/2022 11:11

In research that's been done into male vs female strength and physiology, how do the studies decouple social factors from physiological factors? Boys and girls are socialised very differently. There's a huge social pressure for boys to build upper body strength, for example.

We discuss the social factors all the time on this board in relation to sport.

However, when it comes down to it - the only thing that can be 'levelled' is the physical advantages. Hence why acknowledging male physical advantages is key to having a separate category in sport. It is controllable.

This is not any kind of 'gotcha' for inclusion of males into female sport.

littlbrowndog · 20/03/2022 11:17

But this stuff makes me question any athletes now

Watching world indoors athletics and can I believe who is a woman now ?

littlbrowndog · 20/03/2022 11:18

Used to question who were the dopers now it’s who actually are women

So disappointed

SamphiretheStickerist · 20/03/2022 11:47

[quote IamAporcupine]@SamphiretheStickerist - can I too?

I am currently having a discussion with someone (*) who argues that the physical differences between males and females are due to socialization... Confused. That we are weaker beacuse of Dysney basically. She cites Colette Dawling, who I must admit have not read. It would be great to have your input Grin

(*) she also finds 'difficult' to 'decide' what is male/female...[/quote]
Tell her that she is considering only half of the human condition - socialisation. That would tally with the Disneyfication. Usually referred to as the Victorian Perspective, but I suppose Post Modernism demands an update in everything, eventually.

When it comes to actually measuring the human body and it's potential in any physical activity then yes, that socialisation will have an effect. Think about the differences in how we persist in 'sexing' everything, whether via toxic masculinity or that Princess Effect. Boys will be boys etc. So young girls will be socially steered into 'acceptable' pursuits, away from boxing, rugby, etc.

But then look at how that has been changing over the last 50ish years. Nicola Adams, women's football and rugby etc etc. More young girls are starting those sports and, more importantly, the sports themselves not only accommodate them but encourage them.

So that deals with the half your friend acknowledges.

But the physical science tells the same story. Despite the amazing leaps in understanding the differences in exercise stress responses of sexed bodies, leading to different training regimes for males and females and an better understanding in the relative strengths and weaknesses between the sexes NOTHING can overcome the innate, built in differences.

Usually based, connected to the single most important for the species bodily differences of childbirth demand that female bodies have different hormones and different body responses to them. Think about the hormonal effects on muscle laxity during pregnancy. No male body experiences those changes, it is a sexed difference that has knock effects for anything to do with muscles, for good and bad, depending on the situation.

Placing all men along a spectrum for any bodily measure and women along a separate one the difference between any individual at the same point on the male and female lines will have the same measurable differences - that is men will be roughly 10 % stronger, faster etc. So whilst women's records in all sports have been set and broken, reset at an amazing rate that gap in absolute results remains.

That hasn't changed with the newer, better sexed training regimes. It has become more common. Yes there are areas where female bodies have an advantage. Those same childbearing abilities mean that women have a more stable stance. That Q angle of the pelvic girdle that betrays every transwomen once in motion means that all men have a narrower stance and are less stable, so in sports like archery women have an advantage in stance. But men retain the advantages of lever length, strength etc. So archery, with all the mechanical engineering of the bows etc might eventually make some different decisions about elite participants.

And the body's natural make up of lipids, muscle tissue etc is one we are getting to know more about in extreme endurance sports. Women may well, eventually, become the acknowledged elite performers here. But that allows that enough women will want to... Baby making will again have an effect.

But we know now that women's bodies can come back quite quickly after giving birth, see event cyclists etc. They regain their elite performance levels, but still don't beat elite male performers.

I might have missed something, and this is obviously an explanation not a lecture with all the stats and evidence. I hope it helps.

greasyshoes · 20/03/2022 12:01

So that deals with the half your friend acknowledges.

Is it half?

How do we know what proportion of any perceived male advantage is due to biology, and not society?

Datun · 20/03/2022 12:06

@greasyshoes

I am currently having a discussion with someone () who argues that the physical differences between males and females are due to socialization... confused. That we are weaker beacuse of Dysney basically. She cites Colette Dawling, who I must admit have not read. It would be great to have your input*

This is probably the most important point that's been raised. In research that's been done into male vs female strength and physiology, how do the studies decouple social factors from physiological factors? Boys and girls are socialised very differently. There's a huge social pressure for boys to build upper body strength, for example.

Ffs. Because there are actual physically measurable differences in women's bodies and men's bodies.

Lung capacity, muscle fibre, the way we process oxygen, completely different pelvis shape, which impacts walking and running. Not to mention women menstruate every month and we are carrying around a uterus wherever we go.

How have you reached adulthood and not known this??

Disney is made up btw.

titchy · 20/03/2022 12:10

@greasyshoes

So that deals with the half your friend acknowledges.

Is it half?

How do we know what proportion of any perceived male advantage is due to biology, and not society?

So I'm 5ft 1'' because I watched too many Disney films when I was a child?! And have childbearing hips because of my propensity to host teddy bear tea parties? Good to know!
SamphiretheStickerist · 20/03/2022 12:14

Half as in there are two parts I was discussing. Socialisation and physical attributes.

I said nothing about the scale of effect of either of them.

Theeyeballsinthefuckingsky · 20/03/2022 12:14

I’m wondering if bunbury needs to visit this thread….

On the off chance they don’t, these differences can only be explained by biology.

Trans athlete wins in female swimming race
SamphiretheStickerist · 20/03/2022 12:18

Aye. I have to admit it did make me laugh. That after all that I posted, the lack of stats, numbers, it being only a general discussion, all greasy could come up with was "Is it half?" when I was clear about looking at 2 main issues.

Bunbury Rules from here on.