Maya Forstater Tribunal March 2022- Thread 3

[Whatamesssss]

Thread one, here:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4498167-Maya-Forstater-hearing-starts-Monday

Thread two, here:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4505825-Maya-Forstater-Tribunal-March-2022-Thread-2?pg=1

@tabbycatstripy

Yes. I think that for some people, 'problematic' means 'controversial', for others it means 'presents problems' (like, practical problems when people express it) and for another group it just means 'views we don't like' (but don't realise might be valid because we are not in fact in charge).

It's yet another example of legislation & policies bought in to support minorities, disabled, women etc in the workplace being manipulated by the scramble of the straight white guy to become "top of the heap" again - the most special once more.

This is what the QI report says about "gender" under UK law:

Specifically, the Equality Act was updated to include a broader definition to ensure that transgender individuals are included as a protected group; and there are active discussions to further broaden the category1

1 The Equality Act originally protected individuals who had undergone gender reassignment under the supervision of medical staff - i.e. had medically speaking transitioned. The specification of needing to be under medical supervision has since been removed.

People may not like these terms but it is in a way the battle of the woke left against the liberal left. The liberal left (and indeed the liberal right) are happy for there to be a variety of ideas that you can have the Dworkins unbeliever having big debates at work with the fundamentalist Christian and that the law then balances various rights when they clash - the cake makers Christians who will not make the pro gay cake (Christian v gay rights) or the right of English Catholic doctors and nurses to refuse to do abortions at work.

I don't see why the UK cannot regard the trans issue in the same way - people can have different views and you should be cancelled by the soviet style one right path woke left just because your view is different - in stead we can respect others' points of view even if we disagree with them - that tolerance of difference is what I hope we can preserve in the UK (and US) and as long as you don't shout insults at work to your Christian and Muslim colleague because in your view they are stupid enough to believe in a non existent God you are allowed to say there is no God etc etc. And vice versa.

Anyweay thanks to tabby for the transcribing. I have often being in volved in obtaining court transcripts. County courts usually have a tape recorder on and you can pay the official transcribers of which there is a set list (you cannot get the tapes yourself for important reasons of the system of justice) although occasionally I have found they forgot to switch the machine on so you cannot then get it and rely on your notes. In big cases I have arranged for expensive privat services in advance in the High Court where people sit all day typing as the day goes on then then spent some hours after court ends checking it and email those lawyers and their client who paid the transcript of that day so they can study it over night and there is a record for an appeal - that is an expensive service you have to arrange in advance but worth it when millions are at stake in big cases. I think the one I used was WordWave.

The UK's Supreme Court screens just about all its hearings www.supremecourt.uk/live/court-01.html

They appear to have got a fair few things wrong in that report.

Not to mention, 'an LGBT academic I know says so, so it much be true'.

Reflects badly on CGD. Their credibility is plummeting.

Their credibility is plummeting.

Sink Tank.

Pmk. Thanks again everyone!

Xenia - mostly I agree that people should be able to disagree and live and let live. But with this issue really the question of ‘are transwomen women’ can’t be resolved by agreeing to disagree.

If transwomen are women then they can be in women’s prisons, hospital wards, and on panels which are deemed not to be all women. They can make up 50 percent of a board, and if the other 50 percent are men, the board would be deemed to be 50:50 balanced men and women.

You can respect the other person has a different viewpoint, but society has to come down one side or the other on these matters.

At the moment we have an uneasy position of ‘most transwomen are men, but some are women’ and both sides are pushing to move from this position.

Bother - panels which are deemed, by their presence, not to be all men.

Just looking at Masood Ahmed and ahead to his evidence, and he seems likely to be formidable. Got his degree in 1971 at LSE. At the World Bank, then DfID (interesting), then a Director at the IMF. He joined CGD in 2017, so would assume he came into a culture and wanted to change some stuff.

I've emailed for a login and been sent one, have a tedious meeting all morning but think I can attend the afternoon session.

@Ereshkigalangcleg

I've emailed for a login and been sent one, have a tedious meeting all morning but think I can attend the afternoon session.

I've been logged on every day work permitting - the numbers of observers are growing steeply every day.

There weren't of observers today. Yesterday the woman with her camera on kept making me laugh, was she doing her ironing?

Were lots

So with these logins can you see the people as well as hear them? From the numbers on Tribunal Tweets tweets it looks like this case is becoming very well known. Does the system say how many are tuned in? And do you have to display your name?

@nauticant

This is what the QI report says about "gender" under UK law:

Specifically, the Equality Act was updated to include a broader definition to ensure that transgender individuals are included as a protected group; and there are active discussions to further broaden the category1

1 The Equality Act originally protected individuals who had undergone gender reassignment under the supervision of medical staff - i.e. had medically speaking transitioned. The specification of needing to be under medical supervision has since been removed.

They really don't know what they are talking about.

QI are afraid of saying ... rude words... too, aren't they? I had to read this twice to be sure of what they were getting at.

In this case, Maya is arguing that transgender women should be treated differently from cisgender women based on physical characteristics that they were born with (and may or may not still have.)

Which characeristics were they born with boy no longer have QI? Birth marks? Curly hair? Did they lose a finger?

Oh! You mean penis, QI?! Penis, penis, penis! See, it's not so hard. And then everyone knows WTF you are on about.

*but, not boy!!

@PaleBlueMoonlight they really don't. The real world has popped the gender balloon. If it weren't sonserious, I'd be enjoying all this.

Oh! You mean penis, QI?! Penis, penis, penis! See, it's not so hard. And then everyone knows WTF you are on about.

They would have to know Amanda's fainting couch was within reach when she read it.

Oh wow thread 3!

These are really good :)

In answer to Q earlier on, employment tribunals don't record proceedings so no transcript is possible.

The live tweets and the records here are invaluable! #Sunlight

@yourhairiswinterfire

Their credibility is plummeting.

Sink Tank.

@Ereshkigalangcleg

I've emailed for a login and been sent one, have a tedious meeting all morning but think I can attend the afternoon session.

I've emailed them 3 times now and still nothing, not in spam either

@nauticant

This is what the QI report says about "gender" under UK law:

Specifically, the Equality Act was updated to include a broader definition to ensure that transgender individuals are included as a protected group; and there are active discussions to further broaden the category1

1 The Equality Act originally protected individuals who had undergone gender reassignment under the supervision of medical staff - i.e. had medically speaking transitioned. The specification of needing to be under medical supervision has since been removed.

I hope BC nails them to the wall over this.

I hope he eviscerates that report and shows up the dangerous and foolhardy practice of relying on people who don't know what the fuck they're talking about.

Mainly place marking. Hugely grateful to tabby for the fabulous reporting

It had taken me two full evenings to read the last two days happenings. Unbelievable that these people are allowed to influence policy and the people who make them.

@Masdintle

So with these logins can you see the people as well as hear them? From the numbers on Tribunal Tweets tweets it looks like this case is becoming very well known. Does the system say how many are tuned in? And do you have to display your name?

You can see members of the tribunal and those with a role. Everybody else is asked to turn their cameras off and to be on mute. When you log in, you will see a settings button as well as a connect button. On 'settings' you can set yourself to mute etc.

When you log in, you can display what you want as your name (I'd imagine within the bounds of propriety). Somebody just had a flag today.

I don't think you can actually count how many are tuned it although that's probably available on the dashboard of the people managing the conferencing system.