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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Maya Forstater Tribunal March 2022- Thread 3

999 replies

Whatamesssss · 17/03/2022 16:43

Thread one, here:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4498167-Maya-Forstater-hearing-starts-Monday

Thread two, here:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4505825-Maya-Forstater-Tribunal-March-2022-Thread-2?pg=1

OP posts:
Thread gallery
23
SpinningTheSeedsOfLove · 21/03/2022 12:15

The thought of this organisation working in the developing world has turned rather sickening.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 21/03/2022 12:15

Women have said that it does not 'risk' discomfort. It has caused discomfort so it's a proven truth.

Exactly.

Datun · 21/03/2022 12:16

@SpinningTheSeedsOfLove

The thought of this organisation working in the developing world has turned rather sickening.
Indeed.
EmbarrassingHadrosaurus · 21/03/2022 12:16

@SpinningTheSeedsOfLove

The thought of this organisation working in the developing world has turned rather sickening.
Have they ever spoken to women in LMIC about what they think about Rainbow Flag Imperialism (excellent presentations on this linked upthread from WHRC).
FromOurHatsToOurFeet · 21/03/2022 12:19

It's not a large step from he's saying it's offensive for women to think there's risks involved in giving up same-sex spaces to he's saying it's offensive for women to think really, is it?

tabbycatstripy · 21/03/2022 12:20

BC: Bundle. In Oct 2018, EM emails you after discussion taking place about MF's tweets and says 'give MP a heads-up about MF. Active effort by complainant 3 to find funding at DfID.' You had had a discussion with EM hadn't you?

MA: I don't recall a specific conversation. I think I had had a conversation with MP and that might have fed back to EM but I don't remember exactly.

BC: Suggest EM is referring to removing the claimant's funding and remove her from Gates grant as pretext for ending relationship?

MA: N

BC Bundle - email between EM pressing to take claimant off Gates grant?

MA: Y

BC Reflects what you discussed with her?

MA: N. I said to her I was surprised this other person was to be considered for Senior Fellow post and I thought he was being hired as consultant. I wanted to see if I could find some funding for someone else. Subsequent email exchange. Sentence saying if we take MF off grant can we redirect - I think this reflects EM's consistent effort to take MF off grant but I did not discuss this with her.

BC: p(): Email from LE on 31 Oct - Masood leaning towards not renewing. You had been discussing with him?

MA: He came to my office about expiration. He said what shall we do. I said I am not ready to renew because we were in the middle of discussing, put it on hold. Wasn't going to be rushed.

BC: Bundle. MP email after talk with you, in which you had told him you didn't wish to push for funding for claimant because work wasn't central to development?

MA: N. MP and I had a conversation and I said to him he needed to put a pause on DfID because until we sort this out, why aggravate the issue if we decide we don't want a relationship? He said okay, I'll message this to the team, don't want to bring more people into discussion. Had had a conversation in context of development programme separately that I didn't see a long term role for her.

BC: We heard his account when he gave his evidence. Let me put it to you, he was being truthful, and actually at the time, you were feeding a line to MP which wasn't real reason. Real reason was expression of beliefs and you gave him an untrue line, didn't you?

MA: I disagree. My recollection is also of subsequently... (lost track of exactly what he said - long). But denies this.

BC: Bundle. Exchange between you and MP. You try to get Gates Foundation to give you a pretext so you have a message for your internal purposes. Actual way round this goes: you're not saying 'I want to reposition (CGD activities) and discuss with Gates.' You want to get rid of MF so you reposition. Yes?

MA: N. Inconsistent with subsequent actions in Nov when I confirmed and responded to EM that I was happy for her to stay on as VF for a third year.

BC: You couldn't proceed with that because, as MP reflects on p(), possibility of redirecting the money hadn't happened. You were left with MF in a grant doing work. What we see you trying to do was take her off the grant. No?

MA: If that had been my intention we would have redirected the funding. I was happy for her to carry on for another year as VF. Conversation you refer to earlier did not have that intention.

BC: Reality is that because of MF's expressions of her belief and reaction of EM and others, you had sought with them to redirect funding and take her off the grant?

MA: N

BC: You well knew that expectation she had been given was that she would be brought on, and you supported fundraising for that until this point?

MA: I did not know the extent of that conversation between her and OB. I was not aware of those exchanges and I was supportive of effort to raise funding for work on tax. It was coming to end of its cycle.

BC: Decision to reposition and no longer employ MF was because of expressions of her belief?

MA: Not at all.

BC: Bundle. We see email from EM, you are not copied in but will be in a moment, in which she suggests 17th Dec terminating the claimant's email and VF status until issue is resolved.

MA: Y

BC: Bundle - we see you saying, after being copied in by MP, 'Whilst issue is addressed we should not do this.'

MA: Exactly.

BC: You therefore well understood that there had been this expressed decision not to terminate VF pending decision?

MA: Exactly. View all along.

BC: Bundle. In grounds of resistance you approved, from 1 Jan claimant had no contract or affiliation. Another example of you approving spin, and at worst, flatly untrue, because you think it will help you?

MA: It's entirely accurate that in a formal sense the contract had expired, it was just that I did not want to take action that would make it hard to resume the relationship, or to terminate it. I think this is entirely accurate.

BC: Last question. Final chance to come clean. I suggest that was disingenuous in a formal sense. Reflect on pleading that claimant... had no affiliation, and agree with me that she did? Pursuant to your decision, she continued to have VF affiliation and display that on her comms, to work with fundraising teams, have email, be on website. Just not true, is it?

MA: It is accurate. No formal affiliation. Also accurate that we allowed her to continue to have some privileges.

BC: All done

PrelateChuckles · 21/03/2022 12:22

@Ereshkigalangcleg

Women have said that it does not 'risk' discomfort. It has caused discomfort so it's a proven truth.

Exactly.

Yes. MA is arguing that no woman feels more discomfort with self-id. So... those who say they do are provably lying, are they?
tabbycatstripy · 21/03/2022 12:28

OD reexamination:

OD: MA, did you watch LE's evidence?

MA: Y

OD: If you recall, in his evidence he said ops side of CGD was HR/finance/admin were separate. That your understanding?

MA: Y

OD: On Fri afternoon you said, 'by this point - Feb 2019 - I had come to view that risks greater than benefits.' Talking about VF. (Suggests MA if he had consensus from SPG earlier, would have moved forward in December, but in February moved forward without consensus).

MA: Y

OD: Asking what changed between December and February.

MA: I was more aware of the risks than I had been in December. More conscious of the consequences of those risks because of the claimant's strong engagement with the topic, and felt we had invested enough time and energy. Fractured relationships within leadership team. Even with a grudging consensus, we would be setting ourselves up for continued problems.

OD: Can you assist me? The video that claimant put on Twitter is referenced on 7 Dec by Cindy Huang. Can I ask, did you learn of the video through this communication, or at some prior time?

MA: Through this.

OD: And the fact that MF was having discussions with individuals on Slack is referenced at p(). We see in second row, discussion about pamphlets and comms on Slack. Was this when you became aware of this element?

MA: Erm... I don't think I was aware of this beforehand. I cannot say with certainty that nobody mentioned it in my presence. I hadn't focused on it until this point.

OD: Answer you gave a few moments ago about what changed Dec-Feb: What led to you being more conscious?

MA: I read the reports by the external consultants MP had engaged, and had also read her response. I think that response, along with the final email that MF sent, which again convinced me that she really felt very strongly about this issue and again suggested we should have discussions on it, and all of that led me to the point that it did.

OD: Done.

VoleClock · 21/03/2022 12:29

Well, I admit I am biased, but I can't see that even if CGD were a millipede, they have a leg to stand on!

EmbarrassingHadrosaurus · 21/03/2022 12:31

Thought experiment. What would it be like for MP or MA to come to FWR and listen to women on the topics that their position is that they do not understand?

Would they be able to listen or would they need to pour sealing wax in their notional ears? Or is their perspective such that it would be impossible for them to listen to something they pre-position as being offensive?

Datun · 21/03/2022 12:31

I don't get the deeper legalities and layers of what you can get away with, and what you can't, but it seems pretty obvious that they wanted her out because of her views. And even if her contract had lapsed, they were denying her future work.

Surely that's clear discrimination?

ShagMeRiggins · 21/03/2022 12:31

I should have asked this days ago, but will someone please put me out of my misery and explain what SPG stands for?

nauticant · 21/03/2022 12:32

BC's requested timetable: From now a full day of working on written submissions, start oral submissions tomorrow at midday, going on to Wednesday lunchtime, around 3 hours each.

Judge goes long with it. they will resume oral hearing tomorrow afternoon.

Datun · 21/03/2022 12:33

@EmbarrassingHadrosaurus

Thought experiment. What would it be like for MP or MA to come to FWR and listen to women on the topics that their position is that they do not understand?

Would they be able to listen or would they need to pour sealing wax in their notional ears? Or is their perspective such that it would be impossible for them to listen to something they pre-position as being offensive?

Yes, it's so bloody male centric and convenient, isn't it, that women's views that are 'unwelcome', are so offensive they can't actually be heard.

And he doesn't see anything glaringly misogynistic about that. He thinks it's completely normal.

Fuck me, it's little wonder that women have had to fight so hard for even basic rights, when men care so little about them.

EmbarrassingHadrosaurus · 21/03/2022 12:33

@ShagMeRiggins

I should have asked this days ago, but will someone please put me out of my misery and explain what SPG stands for?
Senior Policy Group
nauticant · 21/03/2022 12:36

Well, to me it means Special Patrol Group.

tabbycatstripy · 21/03/2022 12:36

Slippery customer, Mr Ahmed.

PoshPyjamas · 21/03/2022 12:36

Does anyone know how long it takes for the judge to announce their decision?

Whatamesssss · 21/03/2022 12:37

Oral Evidence to begin tomorrow at 2pm. The written submissions should be available in the bundle tomorrow.

OP posts:
NancyDrawed · 21/03/2022 12:38

@nauticant

Well, to me it means Special Patrol Group.
I kept thinking of Vyvyan's hamster in The Young Ones when I heard / read SPG
WinterTrees · 21/03/2022 12:42

@ShagMeRiggins

I should have asked this days ago, but will someone please put me out of my misery and explain what SPG stands for?
I'm glad you asked. Every time it comes up I think of the hamster on the Young Ones (belonging to Vivian I think?) who was called Special Patrol Group Grin
nauticant · 21/03/2022 12:43

Yes Whatamesssss resumption of the oral hearing tomorrow afternoon, not at midday as I wrote.

WinterTrees · 21/03/2022 12:44

Cross post Nancy! Glad I'm not the only one!

SpinningTheSeedsOfLove · 21/03/2022 12:46

I can't see how Olivia Dobbie can fill 3 hours with convincing arguments on behalf of her client. I think she'll keep it short.

mateysmum · 21/03/2022 12:46

My flabber is gasted once again! MA seriously thinks that believing the presence of transwomen in women's spaces increases the risk of discomfort and harm to women is so offensive that it cannot be read or discussed. But he has never actually thought to you know research why they might think that, just dismissing any evidence as offensive and transphobic.
I despair, but at least win or lose this has shown up the thought patterns of these believers.