Emma Watson's dig at JKR

[IamSarah]

It appears she said at the BAFTAs 'I am here for all of the witches... bar one'

Disappointing but not unexpected.

twitter.com/emwatsonbestof/status/1503505167207084034?s=21

Are you saying those who don't commit crimes should be punished too?

We already have certain sex segregated places eg. Prisons, sports, hospital wards etc. And no one ever seemed to have too much of a problem with it, no one said that was 'punishing' men...until a certain subset of males decided that they wanted full unfettered access to these things.

Including men in the definition of women impacts everything that's specific to being female. It changes the world view of who a woman or girl is and means we no longer have the language with which to describe ourselves accurately or laws to protect us. Men are not women and do not belong in women's changing rooms, sports, prisons, rape shelters, hospital wards or menopause groups. It is unfair, in fact abusive to tell girls that they're not actually girls because some boys are girls

@autienotnaughty

I do agree mn should be held accountable for these threads. There's all these calls on social media to better manage fake news and propaganda this is no different.

🤣

What 'fake news' and propaganda is there? We are having a discussion and you are being asked to back up your arguments.

I stated my view on it once. And I made it very clear that I wouldn't discuss it and explained my reason why.

If you're trying to teach women not to talk about their opinion because it's not worth the hassle, it's worked.

You're welcome to post your opinion @BlindGirlMcSqueaky. But you can't expect everyone to agree with you. And people will challenge you if you can't put forward a good argument or back up any assertions with statistics or reliable sources.

@OldCrone

Personally, it's not the topic that's pushed me away from this board and feminism in general. It's the attitude of the regular posters.

Can you explain a bit more? I'd like to know why a few anonymous posters on here would push you away from feminism in general if you started out as a feminist. What is the 'attitude' that you dislike?

I had assumed that a feminism board would be full of debate, interesting conversations and learning opportunities. After a few months of reading a variety of different threads (I purposely chose ones I also have no interest in so as not to be biased) I realised that the debate going on wasnt really a debate, because it was between people who all agreed. When there is a poster, or a few posters who disagree with the general opinion of the thread, it almost always descends into insults, questioning that persons intelligence and them being told they're not welcome here - this thread is a prime example. I've heard wonderful things about how the board used to be and it just doesnt seem to be like that anymore. I personally like when people disagree with me because it gives me a chance to learn, but I dont feel that insults and demeanor have a place in what is supposed to be an intelligent debate and as I see it time and time again, it has genuinely put me off. It's not a place that I want to be apart of, very unfortunately.

Also, don't think I used "demeanor" right there, I mean demeaning behaviour/words hahah.

@autienotnaughty

I do agree mn should be held accountable for these threads. There's all these calls on social media to better manage fake news and propaganda this is no different.

@autienotnaughty some of your posts have shown a lack of understanding of the basic issues surrounding this subject (intersex as an example). Before calling for MN 'to be held to account for fake news', it might be a good idea to do some research and read up on some of the terminology and debate points which are being discussed.

I genuinely mean this in a helpful way. I lurked on this board for about a year so I could get an understanding of the history, discussion and terminology because I didn't want to wade into a debate for which I didn't understand the background.

@OldCrone

You're welcome to post your opinion *@BlindGirlMcSqueaky*. But you can't expect everyone to agree with you. And people will challenge you if you can't put forward a good argument or back up any assertions with statistics or reliable sources.

I have no interest in forcing other people agree with me. I would like to not be called names or have my intelligence insulted, but it's par for the course on here.

She says 'by the way' not bar one.

Poster 1: the earth is flat
Poster 2: No, it's round
Poster 1: no, the earth is flat because X
Poster 3: X isn't correct, here is some proof the earth is round
Poster 1: I don't want to discuss this, the earth is flat because Z
Poster 4: Z doesn't make sense, here's why
Poster 1: I don't want to discuss this, you're driving people away because you keep going on about the earth being round
Poster 2: This is a discussion forum, and anyway if you don't want to discuss the earth being round, maybe don't come on the "is the earth round" discussion forum, why not use the other one where this topic isn't allowed?
Poster 1: You all have a bad attitude

@materialrealitygirl

Poster 1: the earth is flat Poster 2: No, it's round Poster 1: no, the earth is flat because X Poster 3: X isn't correct, here is some proof the earth is round Poster 1: I don't want to discuss this, the earth is flat because Z Poster 4: Z doesn't make sense, here's why Poster 1: I don't want to discuss this, you're driving people away because you keep going on about the earth being round Poster 2: This is a discussion forum, and anyway if you don't want to discuss the earth being round, maybe don't come on the "is the earth round" discussion forum, why not use the other one where this topic isn't allowed? Poster 1: You all have a bad attitude

I'm not going to be goaded into a discussion on it because it always, without fail, ends up in the same circular conversation that goes nowhere.

You see your opinion as an irrefutable fact. For that reason, it's pointless to discuss it with you.

I have no idea whether she mouthed btw or bar one. Neither makes much sense to me and I think it was an irksomely affected performance. We do know
That she's denounced JK Rowling for JK's view about men not being women, we know that she supports an organisation which encourages the mutilation of children and we know that she's not a particularly good actress
We also know that men aren't women, women aren't men and that sex is real and significant

It always ends up this way. Every time. Without fail.

Posters come on and give an opinion. Other posters who disagree refute that opinion argue against it, ask questions for clarification, give statistics and evidence. Posters then say 'I don't want to engage any more, I've given my opinion and I stand by it, it's pointless trying to argue'. It's even the same phrases a lot of the time!

It's really not the way to look like you have a solid argument.

@Hasselhoffsheadband

It always ends up this way. Every time. Without fail.

Posters come on and give an opinion. Other posters who disagree refute that opinion argue against it, ask questions for clarification, give statistics and evidence. Posters then say 'I don't want to engage any more, I've given my opinion and I stand by it, it's pointless trying to argue'. It's even the same phrases a lot of the time!

It's really not the way to look like you have a solid argument.

Okey cokey

You see your opinion as an irrefutable fact. For that reason, it's pointless to discuss it with you.

I don't. I just want a proper solid argument as to why males should be allowed in spaces that are labelled as being for women.

@Hasselhoffsheadband

You see your opinion as an irrefutable fact. For that reason, it's pointless to discuss it with you.

I don't. I just want a proper solid argument as to why males should be allowed in spaces that are labelled as being for women.

That's cool. You won't be having it with me though.

That's cool. You won't be having it with me though.

I always think threads like this must be very interesting for the lurkers who see the flouncing as soon as a difficult question is asked!

@Hasselhoffsheadband

That's cool. You won't be having it with me though.

I always think threads like this must be very interesting for the lurkers who see the flouncing as soon as a difficult question is asked!

👍

[quote autienotnaughty]@Clymene I was once assaulted by a black man. I don't blame black people for this. I don't blame men for this.

How awful your mum was frightened I hope she's ok. Did the person do something specific to frighten your mum?

I find the whole changing room debate bizarre I personally wouldn't get naked in front of men or women I don't know so I use a cubicle. I would be offended by other adults getting naked in front of my children. There is no other situation where it's appropriate to randomly strip off in front of others so I'm not sure why it is for exercise. Most changing rooms I've accessed for sport/swimming etc are mixed so everyone uses cubicles. It seems a much simpler and safer system. [/quote]
This is baffling. What if there are no cubicles to use and only communal changing rooms? I call it the ostrich tactic: stick your head in the sand and ignore reality that is staring you in the face because you don't want to face the following question:

Can male people use the same room as female people or can female people ask them to go away?

It is that simple. Yes, male people can use the female changing room and no, female people can't ask them to go away (=self id)
Or
No, male people cannot use the female changing room and yes, female people can ask them to go away (= Equality Act)

@Hasselhoffsheadband

That's cool. You won't be having it with me though.

I always think threads like this must be very interesting for the lurkers who see the flouncing as soon as a difficult question is asked!

I'm sure sometimes people leave because of a question they can't answer, but has it occured to you that's it could partly (or sometimes solely) be because of the insults thrown at that poster? By that point, they've usually had their intelligence questioned, been insulted, been told to leave, stop talking, go away. Do you think that's a place you'd feel comfortable standing by your point? If you do, then fair enough, but I'm sure you can understand that others can't. I've had disagreements here before that have ended with a poster copying and pasting things I've said over god knows how many years (unrelated to feminism) with absolutely zero context (therefore taken out of all context) in an attempt to have me bullied. You think anyone is going to want to stay and stand their ground after that? By that point you know full well there is zero point and that the other posters are just looking to run you off the board so that they can all sit around agreeing with one another again.

don't know how many times I need to say that I'm not getting into this. If you want to talk about sharing spaces, start another thread on the subject

You'll keep getting asked and asked until you're worn down and nodding along in agreement with everyone
I"m also impressed with your patience.
Yes, don't know why people don't make a thread about that to discuss instead of completely taking over threads that are nothing to do with what they want to talk about?
Doesnt matter what the subject, they all turn out the same.
Whether it's about Emma and Baftas or whatever

Mumsnet does not allow personal attacks, they also don't allow people to copy stuff from previous threads, so if you report MN will delete that sort of stuff.

I want alternative views to debate with. I sometimes get tired of the same posters saying the same things too, I am confident in my arguments now and I like to debate them with people who don't agree with me on this issue.

But as soon as that happens and I start discussing those posters decide there is 'no point in discussing it'. This has happened a few times now and I have never insulted anyone or told them they shouldn't be here.