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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Emma Watson's dig at JKR

1000 replies

IamSarah · 15/03/2022 07:39

It appears she said at the BAFTAs 'I am here for all of the witches... bar one'

Disappointing but not unexpected.

twitter.com/emwatsonbestof/status/1503505167207084034?s=21

OP posts:
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19
WorkingOnMyNightCheese · 16/03/2022 14:52

I wonder what makes other people feel so confident in their opinions that they mistake them them with fact?

There does seem to be some confusion on this point.

Some things are opinions, and some things are facts.

If I say that I think olives are the most delicious food in existence, that is an opinion. You might say that strawberries are the most delicious food in existence. We disagree, but neither of us is wrong and neither of us is right.

If I say I am seven feet tall, and you look at me and say I am actually more like 5'6", that is not a matter of opinion. I am wrong and you are right. It's a fact that I am 5'6", not seven feet tall.

Fact: This Is Spinal Tap is a film.
Opinion: This Is Spinal Tap is a hilarious film.
Untruth: This Is Spinal Tap is a play by Harold Pinter.

Biological sex is a fact.

EeeICouldRipATissue · 16/03/2022 14:53

From my post - 'I always find it interesting which threads posters choose to engage with

Yes, and I told you why I hadn't commented on it.
Because I think it's just common sense not to comment on ongoing cases.
Obviously, not everyone cares about things like that and will do anyway.
As for the other, as I said I hadn't seen that one.

EeeICouldRipATissue · 16/03/2022 15:01

Please keep going not backing up statements and not actually engaging with the discussion. It's brilliant
I honestly am at a loss now what I haven't backed and engaged with?!
I have been engaging on the thread with posters from both sides?!
Are you meaning the '' debate'' you're having with another poster about what is trans, and the disconnect those who feel?
You do realise we're not the same person, right?
Confused
I am actually really interested in that question and answer myself, would love to know how and why people who are trans feel the opposite sex, and how I feel as well as know body wise too (who is not trans)
I was quite happily reading that and trying to learn before getting sucked back into playground shit of go away and take tissue with you bollocks.
I'm like what?!
Maybe stop the playground shite and we can all be grown ups?!

SamphiretheStickerist · 16/03/2022 15:04

This reply has been deleted

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LaTisaniere · 16/03/2022 15:05

My comment of "feminism eh" wasnt towards people who simply think EW is a bad actress, anyone is entitled to think that. My comment was towards the posters who have quite literally thrown around shitty insults intended to demean another woman for seemingly the only reason of "she was mean to JKR". The hypocritical side of this is that at recent as last week (maybe the week before, not sure) a poster said that she didnt like JKR and she got a barrage of insults thrown at her, questioning her intelligence, saying she must be jealous etc. Its a complete double standard.

Directed towards one woman its "you're being anti-feminist by tearing a woman down, shame on you" but directed towards the other woman its seemingly fair play? That doesnt sit right with me. If people were equally allowed to talk shit and insult JKR on this board then I'd not have said anything, but the fact remains that the slightest dislike of her brings a pile on like almost none other.

If we all agree its crappy to make snide, demeaning and plain mean/rude remarks about one woman, then lets not do it to others.

DisgustedofManchester · 16/03/2022 15:06

So many comments about 10 seconds of speech and mainly ad hominem.

BlindGirlMcSqueaky · 16/03/2022 15:10

@WorkingOnMyNightCheese

I wonder what makes other people feel so confident in their opinions that they mistake them them with fact?

There does seem to be some confusion on this point.

Some things are opinions, and some things are facts.

If I say that I think olives are the most delicious food in existence, that is an opinion. You might say that strawberries are the most delicious food in existence. We disagree, but neither of us is wrong and neither of us is right.

If I say I am seven feet tall, and you look at me and say I am actually more like 5'6", that is not a matter of opinion. I am wrong and you are right. It's a fact that I am 5'6", not seven feet tall.

Fact: This Is Spinal Tap is a film.
Opinion: This Is Spinal Tap is a hilarious film.
Untruth: This Is Spinal Tap is a play by Harold Pinter.

Biological sex is a fact.

There's no confusion at all. I don't need you to explain anything to me.

I prefer to keep an open mind to the idea that there may well be a difference that we are not able to quantify or measure at this time. There are many mysteries about the human body and mind. This is one of them.

It would be convenient if this was a black and white issue and everyone who thought otherwise had comprehension difficulties. I don't believe it's as easily put to bed as that.

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 16/03/2022 15:12

This reply has been deleted

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IamAporcupine · 16/03/2022 15:19

@BlindGirlMcSqueaky

I prefer to keep an open mind to the idea that there may well be a difference that we are not able to quantify or measure at this time. There are many mysteries about the human body and mind. This is one of them.
It would be convenient if this was a black and white issue and everyone who thought otherwise had comprehension difficulties. I don't believe it's as easily put to bed as that.

Can I ask you what you mean by this in these sentences?

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 16/03/2022 15:19

I prefer to keep an open mind to the idea that there may well be a difference that we are not able to quantify or measure at this time. There are many mysteries about the human body and mind. This is one of them.

Do you think sex traffickers worry very much that there might be a difference that they can't quantify at this time, when they're deciding who to deceive into coming to Europe to train as a 'beauty therapist'?

Human traffickers have kidnapped Nigerian people and gang raped them to get them pregnant, so they could sell off the babies. Do you think these rapists experienced the slightest second of self-doubt over their ability to identify the kind of humans that could be farmed for babies?

EeeICouldRipATissue · 16/03/2022 15:21

can assure you that I don't screenshot and post anything to Twitter
Same, have never screenshotted anything or posted anything to Twitter, suppose that doesn't fit the narrative though.

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 16/03/2022 15:24

extract

A BABY farm in Nigeria has been raided and 19 pregnant girls and young women — who had been kidnapped, impregnated and forced to give birth — have been freed.

*Cops claim the boys were going to be sold on the black market for £1,000 and the girls for £700.^

They say the women were lured into the factories in Lagos with the promise of domestic work before being forcibly impregnated.

Lagos police spokesman Bala Elkana said the victims and four babies were rescued from four locations in the Ikotun area.

The victims, who are mainly from eastern Nigeria, said they were tricked into coming to Lagos with the promise of getting job as domestic staff.

Mr Elkana said: "The young women were mostly abducted by the suspects for the purpose of getting them pregnant and selling the babies to potential buyers.

“The girls were tricked with employment as domestic staff in Lagos."

Nigeria has a high incidence of syndicates that keep young women to produce babies for sale, which have locally been termed "baby factories".

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 16/03/2022 15:32

An Open Letter To the Guy on Twitter Who Wonders if Biological Sex is Real

Imagine you’re standing at a train station.

Across from you, you see another man step across the tracks. He’s distracted, too busy to take the long way around, too lost in his phone to notice where he’s going. You turn your head the other way and see the train, barreling towards him as he walks into its path.

What do you do? The answer is obvious, hopefully: You scream, you shout, you wave your arms and make a scene. And if he still doesn’t notice, still doesn’t look up from his phone, you jump down and push him off those tracks yourself. Maybe you’re not that brave in reality. But at the very least you hope that’s what you’d do, right?

And why is that? Why would you go through all that effort? Because, consciously or not, you understand Newton’s laws. You understand that force is equal to mass times acceleration, that a very heavy thing moving very fast can destroy a fragile human body in an instant. You do what you can to get that man off the tracks because you know that a life depends on it.

But did you know that Newton’s laws are hardly stable? That they are mere approximations, liable to break down in all sorts of situations? It’s true. Newtonian physics can’t predict the way light bends on its way through the solar system, or how an electron might spin around an atom’s core. Even something as mundane as your cellphone relies on a far more sophisticated model. While those simple equations you learned in junior high school might get you through the day, the truth is much more complicated.

Now, here’s a question: Knowing that, do you change what you yell to the man on the tracks? After all, “The train is coming towards you!” is technically inaccurate. Einstein showed us that movement is relative; in a sense, it’s just as reasonable to say that the man is hurtling towards a stationary train. You’ve got a few seconds left. Do you take the time to capture the nuance?

Physics may be the least of your problems, by the way. Biology is just as messy. You’re probably worried that the man will end up dead, smashed to pieces or ground into bits. But what does it mean to be alive or dead anyway? Many scientists would tell you that no single criteria exists to distinguish inanimate and animate matter. Some entities, like a virus or a prion, even shatter the binary completely. And if you can’t even explain why the man on the tracks is alive, what sense does it make to worry about keeping him that way?

And of course, all of this is beside the point if we don’t know what makes something right or wrong in the first place. Dozens and dozens of complex ethical questions exist without any agreed-upon answer, and the foundations of morality are endlessly debated. Should you do anything to help the man at all? You can imagine situations where inaction is best; perhaps he’s a serial killer, or some other unrepentant monster. Perhapsnomoral truths exist, and your effort to save him is completely irrational. Can you be sure your intervention is truly the right thing to do, if you can’t even define what “right” means in the first place?

This certainly is a complex matter —a complex obligation, a complex process, a complex result. Presumably, you’ll want to make sure your warning is in line with all the latest quantum theory. You’ll want to figure out just what you mean by “life” and “death” too. And it wouldn’t hurt to track down the nearest priest or philosophy professor to elaborate the finer points of ethics. Nuance, accuracy, and a critical eye are important, after all. Shouldn’t we strive to get everything right?

Now, here’s a different thought experiment: Imagine it’s you on the train tracks.

Lately, I’ve seen a lot of debates break out on Twitter over biological sex — what defines it, how it can be measured, whether it exists at all. The men who dominate these debates are often experts in their fields, meaning they use terms like “bimodal distribution” and “nonstandard karyotypes” to make their otherwise mundane points. I think most of these points are foolish, tired rehashings of fallacies first identified by ancient Greeks in the fourth century BCE. They confuse — or, perhaps, intentionally conflate — imprecision with invalidity, social perception with social construction, and binarism with exclusivity. In other words, they trade in the all-too-familiar illogic that festers at the intersection of science and philosophy, where ontological cowardice appears as the highest form of nuance.

But here I go again, right? It’s so easy to get sucked into this debate, to get that hot indignation in your stomach that comes when a foolish claim is so proudly asserted. And I don’t even have skin in the game — binary or not, my sex will still land me squarely in the “paid more, raped less” category. So what’s the point beyond intellectual exercise? It seems more and more obvious to me that even entertaining the debate is a concession, an assent to women’s lives being made the subject of thought experiments and counterfactuals plucked from the air by some post-grad who, coincidentally, has never once worried about pregnancy from rape.

So that’s my quarter-through-the-year resolution: I’m not going to debate with you about the reality of biological sex, for the same reason I wouldn’t stand on the train platform debating the finer points of physics while the man on the tracks gets ground into meat. That might sound a little dramatic, a flourish of rhetoric to cover up a weak rebuttal. But how long have you spent reading up to this point? Five minutes? Ten? Then the world has fifty more mutilated girls than when you started. Were the men who carried out those mutilations confused about what makes a female body? Did they ponder chromosome parings and standard deviations when they chose who to cut? Or is that kind of nuance a luxury set aside just for educated, progressive, worldly men like you?

Isn’t it odd that sex was never so complicated before? There was nothing ethereal about our biology when it came to allocating the right to vote, or own property, or walk down the street at night without fear. We knew perfectly well what made someone female when that female-ness guaranteed a life of subservience and pain. Only when women began to say no did their bodies become a concept. So many feminists have made this point, over and over again. I see them say it. I know you read it. Did you listen? If not, why? And why do you always respond when I say it? It seems you do know who has a female body, when it comes to decide which perspective is ignored.

Sex is such a mystery to you when women want shelters for themselves, meetings for themselves, words for themselves. Pardon me for asking, but is it equally mysterious when you log off Twitter and move over to Pornhub? The true nature of a female body is so complex when you lecture. Does it become simple again when you masturbate? Who does the laundry in your house? Were you somehow able to navigate an inchoate soup of X’s and Y’s to saddle your girlfriend with the dishes? Give yourself some credit — I think you know perfectly well what a female body is. But in case you don’t, here’s a hint:

It’s the only type of body that gets you thrown on the funeral pyre when the husband dies. It’s the only type of body that gets your feet bound and your breasts ironed. It’s the only type made pregnant through rape and burned with acid, the only type expected to sit quietly and listen while we redefine it away, the only type men have spent millennia criticizing and critiquing and buying and selling until the moment we decided we couldn’t figure out what the fuck it even means.

You know what a female body is, dude? It’s the only type of body that makes men like you ask such stupid questions. So please, stop. This is an emergency. This is three and a half billion human beings tied to the tracks, and you’re riding on the train. Your insistence on nuance, your fetish for accuracy, your smug deconstruction of common sense — it doesn’t make you thoughtful. It doesn’t make you wise. It doesn’t make you progressive. It makes you an asshole. It makes you worse than a bystander. A bystander does nothing. He watches from afar. You step into the fray just to prod the victim. I’m not going to step in too, laying out my rebuttal over the screams. It’s just not worth it.

Here’s my resolution: As long as pimps, priests, and politicians know what a female body is, I do too. The moment they’re confused — the moment they hesitate, the moment they qualify, the moment they adopt the restraint and caution you demand from the targets of their abuse— then I’ll happily open myself up to ambiguity. Until then, I beg you. Reserve your philosopher’s curiosity, your scientific rigor, for the ten thousand other questions thatdon’tmake a thought experiment out of an atrocity. What marks the division between knowledge and belief? How did life develop from non-life? At what point does a man losing his hair become bald and not merely thinning? Go tweet at Rogaine and get their thoughts on that conundrum. Leave rape crisis centers alone.

BlindGirlMcSqueaky · 16/03/2022 15:39

TLDR

Clymene · 16/03/2022 15:42

👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼👏🏼

SamphiretheStickerist · 16/03/2022 15:43

No idea why I was deleted. I apologised for being annoying...

Clymene · 16/03/2022 15:44

Brief extract for you in that case @BlindGirlMcSqueaky:

Your insistence on nuance, your fetish for accuracy, your smug deconstruction of common senseit doesn’t make you thoughtful. It doesn’t make you wise. It doesn’t make you progressive. It makes you an asshole.

EeeICouldRipATissue · 16/03/2022 15:51

OK, I read all that.
Interesting thought experiment about the guy on the tracks.
Kept reading as it's been said about wanting to discuss biology and what it means to be trans on here, thought there'd be an interesting thought experiment on biology, would have been interested in that?
But a very long comment short, after the guy on the train tracks thought experiment, just had you turning round and saying but I'm not going to do it for biology?!
How can we ever start to understand being trans if nobody is willing to?!
We KNOW what a cis woman 's body is.
No need to start going on about women's bodies being tied to train tracks, funeral pyres, rape, acid..... Hmm
Nobody is disputing biological bodies?!
I'm not, anyway.
I'm interested in the wider discussion around it

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 16/03/2022 15:54

@BlindGirlMcSqueaky

TLDR
Goodness, suppose someone does ever find a this "difference that we are not able to quantify or measure at this time" and explain the mystery of the human body and mind that you think might exist and prove us all wrong.

Suppose they do, and you never find out, because they use too many words to write about it. Sad

SirVixofVixHall · 16/03/2022 15:59

@MrsWooster

Janesmom “Hate to break this one to you but, as an Ivy League alumnus, I’m going to take a punt she’s a damn lot more intelligent than most of the posters here.” You ain’t frum round here, are ye?
Grin
NashvilleQueen · 16/03/2022 15:59

I prefer to keep an open mind to the idea that there may well be a difference that we are not able to quantify or measure at this time. There are many mysteries about the human body and mind. This is one of them.

Genuine question. Is there another area of science that you hold similar views about? That you won't accept until the end of recorded time in case someone comes up with proof of the contrary? Gravity? That the earth is round? The Big Bang theory?

Or where do you stand on someone who says they're a different race? Or a different age? Or species? Because all science is evolving but by your reckoning we can't be sure of anything because one day it might all turn out to be wrong.

SirVixofVixHall · 16/03/2022 16:03

@Briannashoshanna

She thinks she’s terribly clever, doesn’t she?

Educated beyond her intelligence, deeply spiteful and certainly no feminist. I’m embarrassed for her.

JKR is one hundred times the woman Emma Watson will ever be.

Agree. Very cringy.
BlindGirlMcSqueaky · 16/03/2022 16:06

@Clymene

Brief extract for you in that case *@BlindGirlMcSqueaky*:

Your insistence on nuance, your fetish for accuracy, your smug deconstruction of common senseit doesn’t make you thoughtful. It doesn’t make you wise. It doesn’t make you progressive. It makes you an asshole.

Good to know Smile
EeeICouldRipATissue · 16/03/2022 16:07

Educated beyond her intelligence

Why the insinuation she can't possibly have got a good education on her own merit?
Why not?

LaTisaniere · 16/03/2022 16:07

@NashvilleQueen Your question wasn't directed towards me, however, it's something I'm extremely interested in.

I recently read that new evidence suggests that T-Rex dinosaurs (as well as others) very likely had feathers, not scales and were from the bird family. Now, if I had theorized this some time ago, I would've been called insane, "facts are facts" etc, yet now people are acknowledging that the facts were wrong. Same with the earth being flat, iirc (and I could be wrong!) wasn't there a period when scientists said that the earth was flat? Wasnt there also something with a neuron or atom being discovered to be different even though all of the scientists swore blind that their works were final? Isn't it the literal job of scientists, physicists etc to disprove facts and theories? Those are just 3 examples, I'm sure there are plenty more. I, personally, will remain open minded that what we know as fact today, may not be tomorrow.

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