Exulansic has reduced following?

[Linearpark]

Are people still following her now she's migrated to Odyssey? Her numbers are way down but you'd think everyone knew where to find her by now. Is there something about the Odyssey platform that is off-putting that I should know about. eg has it got unsavoury content or is it sound and just small and alternative? Or do people subscribe to channels that they aren't really interested in? Just wondered.

Yeah Clive Simpson and Mr Menno have both been giving good content lately

@TheWeeDonkey

Yeah Clive Simpson and Mr Menno have both been giving good content lately

I also like King Critical and Rubble of Empires.

Karen and Exulansic are bullies and grifters.

@OliviaOliva

Karen and Exulansic are bullies and grifters.

You are posting that all over Mumsnet on threads that have nothing to do with this discussion, Olivia.

Are you the Olivia who has been banned from Gettr for threatening to shoot people and trying to doxx them?

@Mumsnet known doxxer on thread - "Olivia"

Karen openly goes by her name I think. Unless Karen is a fake name and play on the Karen meme.
Exulansic is a bully.and so is Karen. They should act better.

Yes Karen's real name isn't a secret.

I see Genspect has answered the questions asked : genspect.org/genspect-rebuttal/

Oh good grief that statement is terrible!

I can only repeat myself from earlier:

I want genspect to succeed and grow but they need to stop behaving reactively to trolls and instead focus on developing a robust safeguarding culture.

This whole tribal, ego-driven clusterfuck is incredibly bad for safeguarding.

@Lineaxxxxcc

I agree it's completely mad. Will KD ever stop questioning Genspect (not that I think she shouldnt) and will Genspect ever answer her questions? This could go on forever.it reminds me if a film I once saw set in the 50s. A teenage girl refused to eat her dinner, a kipper. Her father gave it to her the next day for dinner, and again she wouldn't eat it. This went on until it started becoming rancid. In the end the cat found it in the pantry and ate it. The cat probably died I'm not sure.

‘Spring and Port Wine’. Love that film, a real period piece. It’s late sixties though.

@LangClegsInSpace

Oh good grief that statement is terrible!

I can only repeat myself from earlier:

I want genspect to succeed and grow but they need to stop behaving reactively to trolls and instead focus on developing a robust safeguarding culture.

This whole tribal, ego-driven clusterfuck is incredibly bad for safeguarding.

I disagree, in so far as I believe that a statement was absolutely necessary. The gross defamation of the parents and professionals involved with Genspect has been incredibly distressing for the parents, who are accused of being "child abusers", of covertly and deliberately "transing" their children while pretending to support "watchful waiting" and of being part of a "paedophile network".

This shit is all over every social media platform and people are actually believing it.

It is ridiculous that the bizarre propaganda campaign against Genspect needed to be refuted but it is good to see it all laid out in one place. I hope it is disseminated widely and read.

This is their Safeguarding Policy:

genspect.org/safeguarding/

In the statement they, and Stella in the video linked below, encourage anyone with any concerns about Genspect to email them. If you feel that their safeguarding culture is not robust, I honestly think that they would welcome constructive comments and suggestions.

The allegations against Genspect have been so preposterous as to beggar belief.

On this side of the "Sex and Gender" discussion we have prided ourselves on researching facts, rather than being swayed by unevidenced, emotional claims.

This whole debacle, in which a couple of "GC Thought Leaders" targeted and smeared Genspect, DSD Families and individual women associated with those organisations, shows that "the GC side" is not immune to mob mentality.

Anyone who bothered to look at the Genspect website, or listen to The Wider Lens podcasts, or read the stories published by parents on PITT, or checked the details of the medical professional organisations supporting materials on the DSD Teens website, or the actual DSD Families website itself, would have questioned the validity of the wild accusations being thrown around.

Instead, the accusations were swallowed hook, line and sinker and then regurgitated and amplified over social media. "So-and-so said it, so it must be true."

"Appeal to Authority" is a logical fallacy.

"The fallacy of appeal to authority makes the argument that if one credible source believes something then it must be true."

The allegations against Genspect were never credible and the evidence was there to see for anyone who bothered to think for themselves and take a look.

The "authority figures" responsible have demonstrated that they are very far from being "credible sources".

I sincerely hope that their fans will take the time to make use of the resources provided by Genspect, read what parents say on PITT and actually listen to The Wider Lens podcasts, rather than rely on "reaction videos" that take snippets out of context and blow them out of all proportion.

Unfortunately, I am not sure if they will dare to risk polluting their eyes and ears and minds with what they have been led to believe is pro-paedophilia propaganda.

Stella O'Malley was interviewed by Benjamin Boyce on 8th March:

"We speak about her forthcoming book "Bully-Proof Kids" and how it applies to online adult interactions."

I know that BB is a bit of a bête noire as far as some are concerned but this is worth a watch, not just for Stella's account of working with children who bully and who are bullied and the adult-created cultures that support or deter bullying in school but also for the discussion about the smear campaign that has been waged against Genspect from within the "GC Community".

Another bête noir for some, Kellie-Jay aka Posie Parker speaks up for the parents who have been defamed as part of this campaign of disinformation.

I would also recommend this to anyone who has been fooled by the lies spread about Kellie-Jay wrt her visit to the USA three years ago.

That was yet another "tribal, ego-driven clusterfuck" . . . yet we survive them as a movement and battle on!

Great post, 264

264, I agree. Great post.

I also agree @264 I was hearing up to write a long reply and I'm sooo thankful you did it for me

Gearing up! Not hearing up!

This is their Safeguarding Policy:
genspect.org/safeguarding/

Thanks for the link, but I'm just getting a blank page (on both phone and laptop). Is it just me?

A statement was necessary but this one is dreadful. It's incredibly defensive, filled with words like 'unhinged' and 'crazy'. I understand why but they really need to rise above this and remain professional.

it is good to see it all laid out in one place

This is the problem. I do not dispute that they have been under severe attack or that some of the accusations are outlandish. But mixed in with the outlandish are some genuine issues which they are failing to address because they see it as all part of the same big Karen plot.

FYI I've never watched Karen beyond a couple of her early videos. I'm aware that Stella has blocked a number of women with a lot of safeguarding expertise and no connection to Karen, who attempted to engage with her politely.

In their statement they say:

We have also been accused of being “anti-safeguarding”. The issue in this case seemed to be that, on Sasha and Stella’s podcast, Dr Michael Bailey made a passing reference to work by Ken Zucker from 1997, which described a five-year-old boy who was masturbating. People seemed to think that this was, by definition, a red flag for safeguarding. However, anyone familiar with the literature will know that this is not a fully informed outlook: childhood masturbation can be, but is not always, a safeguarding issue. Zucker’s chapter passed a strict pre-publication peer-review process, and it is absurd to hold Genspect accountable for any putative failures in that process which happened decades before we existed. We note that the boy in question would now be roughly 30 years old; the people who criticised Sasha and Stella’s podcast did not address this point.

In fact, the child described was age 3-4, he was masturbating while wearing his mother's underwear and his father turned out to be a secret cross dresser.

This is by definition a red flag for safeguarding!

stopabusetogether.campaign.gov.uk/spot-the-signs/#has-their-behaviour-changed

Of course that doesn't mean that abuse is definitely happening - a red flag is a sign that should be taken seriously, not definitive proof of harm.

Of course they shouldn't be held responsible for something that happened decades ago but for two therapists who work with children and families to not even acknowledge the red flag is very alarming.

Genspect say, 'We speak for thousands'. There will be families among those thousands where CSA is going on and very likely some of those children will be behaving in similar ways to the child in Bailey's anecdote.

What message will those families get from this podcast?

Why can't they just add a bit to the video description and the end of the video to point out that behaviour like this in a very young child can be a sign of sexual abuse?

Why on earth would they insist that any concerns are raised privately in response to things they have said (or in this case, failed to say) publicly?

Why would I email Stella after having heard her on hatpinwoman's twitter space, where it became very clear that she does not understand safeguarding?

They seem to treat all discussion of safeguarding as allegations of abuse. They seem to treat anyone saying anything as part of the same gang of bullies.

I have seen their safeguarding policy. They had none until the beginning of January and the current version is much improved on the one they had up until at least early February, which looked like this:

<a class="break-all" href="https://web.archive.org/web/20220122070753/genspect.org/safeguarding/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">web.archive.org/web/20220122070753/genspect.org/safeguarding/

So that's one good thing that has come out of this clusterfuck - they are at least developing better policy. I'm particularly pleased to see a commitment to appropriate training in there.

More of this and less reacting to trolls will stand them in very good stead.

This is unfortunate timing, there's a lot more I could say but I'm about to leave for a few days away so I won't be around to see responses until Monday.

I think it’s just you! I can access it via that link.

@WatchfulWaitingWorried

This is their Safeguarding Policy: *genspect.org/safeguarding/*

Thanks for the link, but I'm just getting a blank page (on both phone and laptop). Is it just me?

It's a weird embedded PDF thing, it's a bit flakey. Try a different browser?

Ah, that worked, thanks!

Agree @264. I do believe genspect do good work and there's a massive need for their support and the excellent info on their website. All I've seen suggests their intentions are very good. @lang why don't you take them up on their invite to email those points, they have said they welcome constructive feedback, so why not.

One thing that has surprised me is Angus Fox's role in Genspect. I've valued reading his stuff and listening to his interviews, but he's involved with these parents as an investigative journalist, as I understand it; but is otherwise an anonymous person, using a pseudonym, only seen talking about this issue in avatars, and his "day job" is not in the field of gender issues. He's obviously become a valued media voice for parents with gender questioning children; but I just think it's an odd thing for him to be working within a therapy/help group setting, and potentially handling confidential/sensitive information, given his journalistic status and anonymous public persona (which could affect accountability). Not casting aspersions on AG or his good intentions, just concerned about transparency. As @LangClegsInSpace has highlighted above, Genspect is an important resource, and they need to stop handing out sticks for their detractors to beat them with.

@ATeamAmy they explain that point in their rebuttal - parents need to retain confidentiality. I wish people would appreciate that we are existing within a weird space where therapists can't give their true opinion without risking their licence and where parents can't reveal themselves without putting their children in a difficult position.

@LangClegsInSpace it is a bit much to expect such high standard when we are existing within such a difficult framework. It is only when the laws are amended and when regulated governmental organisations finally see the light that we can expect full transparency in organisations. I'm not sure who's in Transgender Trend other than Stephanie Davies Arai. I'm not sure who runs SEGM. I don't see safeguarding policies in either organisation?

Why do you specifically criticise Genspect and ignore the other organisations? What's that about?

I saw the horrible attacks on Genspect's safeguarding after the interview with Michael Bailey on the Wider Lens podcast. They were not polite questions, they were vicious and inappropriate. This was one passing reference in a podcast interview to one child and these so-called safeguarding experts acted as if Genspect needed to call the ambulance for this boy from 1997. It was weird.

Maybe I'm completely out of line @LangClegsInSpacebut I don't see a safeguarding policy on the Safe Schools Alliance site? Nor on Standing for Women? Nor on the Thoughtful Therapists website?

It seems to me just as Genspect said, that they and these organisations are focused on working with adults and not children and so it isn't central to their work. Although surely Safe Schools Alliance should have one? I think your criticisms should be more carefully considered within context rather than expect NHS level transparency.

I also agree that it's a terrible statement. I was a solicitor for many years, and this is the sort of well intentioned but completely misguided document, produced by a client without first seeking legal and public relations guidance, that would make my heart sink.