Exulansic has reduced following?

[Linearpark]

Are people still following her now she's migrated to Odyssey? Her numbers are way down but you'd think everyone knew where to find her by now. Is there something about the Odyssey platform that is off-putting that I should know about. eg has it got unsavoury content or is it sound and just small and alternative? Or do people subscribe to channels that they aren't really interested in? Just wondered.

@lovelyweathertoday

It's a real shame the route she has gone down. Another here who was hugely impressed to start with, but I disagree with her about CAIS.

It's got nothing to do with men deciding they are women.

I agree. Its sad but true, a lot of her early videos were eye opening and quite scary, but how many times do we have to say that transgenderism has nothing to do with DSD. This is a very disappointing turn.

Exulansic is not alone in losing her way so spectacularly. Recently, and possibly accelerated by the events in Ukraine, I've noticed others actively fighting different aspects of the culture wars seemingly losing their grip on rationality.

As I see it, some people see an injustice, become single minded in their opposition and become "known" activists, and then something happens (to do with them having an unusual way of perceiving reality, the intoxciation of a rapidly increasing following, something else?) to turn their rational opposition into a righteous crusade. Once they are a righteous crusader they can abandon all sense of proportionality and are free to turn into something like a mirror image of those they originally opposed.

But the DSD issue is not niche to the TRAs. They have hounded her off her channel for daring to say that CAIS people are males. And she seems absolutely right to say that babies where there is doubt (obviously a vanishingly small number) should be genetically tested at birth. It just makes sense, so the mother has this knowledge.

If the CAIS person (above) is a fraud then Exculansic should be allowed to say this, not to lose her YouTube over it.

The misinformation in the mainstream is horrendous. We have Mhairi Black saying that 2 % of infants are intersex. This is so wildly out.

Exculansic calls a male a male. And she calls out the horrors of the American shit show that is jazz j. Someone needs to do it.

I agree that she should be able to say people with CAIS are technically male. She should be free to express her opinions online and others should be free to argue against them.

Babies born with ambiguous genitalia are tested at birth, girls with CAIS who discover this when they are teenagers appear female at birth, so no testing would be done.

@oldwomanwhoruns

But the DSD issue is not niche to the TRAs. They have hounded her off her channel for daring to say that CAIS people are males. And she seems absolutely right to say that babies where there is doubt (obviously a vanishingly small number) should be genetically tested at birth. It just makes sense, so the mother has this knowledge.

If the CAIS person (above) is a fraud then Exculansic should be allowed to say this, not to lose her YouTube over it.

The misinformation in the mainstream is horrendous. We have Mhairi Black saying that 2 % of infants are intersex. This is so wildly out.

Exculansic calls a male a male. And she calls out the horrors of the American shit show that is jazz j. Someone needs to do it.

I agree with a lot of what you say, but CAIS is SO different. Can you honestly say that if you had a daughter who didn't menstruate, in all other aspects as far as you were concerned, was a normal healthy teenage 16 year old girl, and you found out after testing that she had CAIS - you would suddenly start treating her as male, making her use male spaces, banning her from women's ones, change her pronouns etc? That is what Exulansic advocates. That is what her followers advocate. And I just don't believe that is right. A CAIS sufferer (if that's the right word) will have been socialised as a girl from day 1 of life. They know nothing else. It's as much of a shock to them as anyone else, they have external female anatomy.

It's not remotely the same as a man deciding he is a woman.

I believe that's why it's a red herring and I've no idea why some people seem to have latched onto it as a crusade.
I agree that there is misinformation about the statistical incidence of DSDs.
I agree that Exulansic should not have lost her YouTube channel over calling out Dalea Rundblad. I'm not sure this is why she lost her channel though.
I agree with most of what she has said about Jazz Jennings, apart from the later stuff about Prader Willie Syndrome and some other very odd tangents she went off on.

But I cannot agree that DSDs have ANY place in the transgender argument.

@RVN123

@oldwomanwhoruns is bang on and you are missing the point of what Exulansic is doing. Exulansic is fighting against the idea that sex is a spectrum. This is a crucial fight, a key component against men having access to all female spaces. TRAs are using DSDs to argue that "biologically" there is no such thing as binary sex, that male and female are biologically blurred so there no biological basis to claim that woman are adult females.

I stopped following her on YouTube before the DSD row because she posted too much. I still got her videos on suggested and I did watch a lot. I was never going to follow her to another platform though, and at this point I've stopped listening because I disagree with her perspective and her behaviour.

[quote DontLikeCrumpets]@RVN123

@oldwomanwhoruns is bang on and you are missing the point of what Exulansic is doing. Exulansic is fighting against the idea that sex is a spectrum. This is a crucial fight, a key component against men having access to all female spaces. TRAs are using DSDs to argue that "biologically" there is no such thing as binary sex, that male and female are biologically blurred so there no biological basis to claim that woman are adult females.[/quote]
I'm sure, given how everything is so bloody fudged by TRAs, that being single minded about what constitutes a male or female can come as a relief to some.

But I honestly don't see why you can't know that a person with CAIS is technically male, but should be treated as female from start to finish.

I mean has she seen anyone with CAIS??

Treating them as anything other than the female they believe themselves to be would be a complete nonstarter. Totally pointless.

It's an odd mindset that refuses to accept a technical nuance, based on the fact that other nuances, of a completely different nature, are detrimental.

She called out the individual who said they were CAIS and brought up female, as a male brought up a man. Hence they were telling whopping porky pies.
That's not a technical nuance, that's exposing a deception. If true. And I've not seen a denial. Unless anyone knows better?

@oldwomanwhoruns
And none us will see a denial because TRAs got what they want which was not only to effectively silence her by getting her off youtube but also to cast her as over the top mean and unkind.

[quote DontLikeCrumpets]@RVN123

@oldwomanwhoruns is bang on and you are missing the point of what Exulansic is doing. Exulansic is fighting against the idea that sex is a spectrum. This is a crucial fight, a key component against men having access to all female spaces. TRAs are using DSDs to argue that "biologically" there is no such thing as binary sex, that male and female are biologically blurred so there no biological basis to claim that woman are adult females.[/quote]
No, sorry, I'm not missing the point.

Sex is binary, I've always said that and have argued it.

What there ARE are disorders of sexual development that are vanishingly rare, that none of us are likely to encounter in our lifetimes, and that have no bearing at all on the trans debate.

Since DSDs occur no more frequently in the trans population than the general population, it's completely irrelevant to the issue.

It doesn't matter what TRAs are arguing. A lot of them are quite frankly unhinged.
I thought WE, on the other hand, were supposed to be the rational ones - can we not accept that there are very rare legitimate disorders of the sexual pathway which may have a legitimate claim to using female spaces?
Again, I'll ask - if it was YOUR daughter/niece/grandaughter - just diagnosed as a CAIS sufferer at 16/17 years of female life, are you saying she should now STOP using female spaces, start using all male facilities and spaces, changer her pronouns so people "know" she is male etc? That you would stop thinking of her as anything other than a female? I just don't buy that anyone would think this was right or acceptable.
Can't you see that there is nuance here?

I agree with everything said about girls with CAIS needing to be the exception to any rule written along a strict XX/XY boundary.

However, having followed these arguments these last few weeks, my hardline stance on trans people (no DSDs involved) has been challenged. I can't see any moral difference when it comes to people like Jazz who have been brought up from a very young age (an age that few of us would have clear memories of) as female, have been told by all the responsible adults around her that she's female and that her genitalia is a mistake by God or similar, has gone on puberty blockers that have rendered her male genitalia next to useless and led her to develop a typical female appearance, and ultimately had bottom surgery. The notion that Jazz and individuals like her should be encouraged to/forced to abandon their identity and "resume" being male is, I think problematic. The only difference in a trans case to a girl with CAIS is that, in the former, the child is surrounded by mendacious, exploitative adults (and even that's not cut and dried in the case of well-meaning parents following medical advice), and in the latter, the parents are wholly innocent. And either way, as far as the child is concerned, they are not responsible for parental actions over which they have no control, and medical misdiagnosis.

Also, I'm assuming that there may be girls with CAIS who will decide to actually embrace their XY genetic status. What is their status? Are they transitioners? Surely we cannot morally oppose any girl with CAIS deciding they would like to identify as male?

It's a bloody minefield, and I completely agree that DSD conditions should not form any part of the GC discussion and respect the request that they be left alone. Having said that, I have seen DSD charities linked as a parent resource on GC websites, so possibly our side is also muddying the water.

Just to be clear, I am not talking about teen/adult transitioners. Just those who were socially transitioned as very small children, had it drilled into them that they are female, and have gone on to have medical interventions at a young age. Obviously we are campaigning for a world where this does not happen, but there will be a group of children for whom this is their life now and there is no going back.

I'll also add that Cluniac has dropped a pretty heartbreaking youtube video today and he's talking about transitioning again and is clearly deeply depressed and distressed. I really hope that he has not suffered a pile on as a result of defending Exulansic.

Also, I'm assuming that there may be girls with CAIS who will decide to actually embrace their XY genetic status. What is their status? Are they transitioners?

Yes, these people do exist and some do undergo gender reassignment surgery. I won't link. It is unclear how (un)common it is.

@nauticant

Also, I'm assuming that there may be girls with CAIS who will decide to actually embrace their XY genetic status. What is their status? Are they transitioners?

Yes, these people do exist and some do undergo gender reassignment surgery. I won't link. It is unclear how (un)common it is.

That must be very difficult. I thought that CAIS meant that they did not respond at all to testosterone, even exogenous synthetic testosterone no matter how much they were given. It was argued that they could not masculinise no matter how much they are given, it simply does not work. Am I misunderstanding? Or do they just socially transition, or transition medically (phalloplasty etc) without the hormones?

@ATeamAmy "I completely agree that DSD conditions should not form any part of the GC discussion and respect the request that they be left alone."

TRAs are responsible for bringing DSD into the discussion because they are using DSD to argue sex is a spectrum so therefore sex single places are pointless.

Sex is Not A Spectrum
www.realityslaststand.com/p/sex-is-not-a-spectrum?s=r

This whole thing is why its so disgusting that TRAs have weaponised people with DSDs in the first place.

Cluniac's vid is sad but his conduct on Twitter yesterday killed off any sympathy I once had for him. I have a close friend with BPD so I know how destructive a condition it can be, but to call women who have been nothing but kindly towards him bitches and cunts? Nah. I don't think his latest spiral is Exulansic related; it's possible to be both mentally ill and vindictive and I reckon he's both.

If you search for the terms "CAIS" and "phalloplasty" you can find out more RVN123.

I'm not on Twitter, but just looked at Cluniac's page. I can't see him calling women bitches and cunts. I can see he said, "I really genuinely hate all of my followers. I think you're disgusting selfish people." He's in high state of distress and projecting his own self loathing. He's not handling becoming someone others follow and listen to because he has no love of himself. He's ill. Have some compassion.

Yes I know, DontLkeCrumpets, but surely the GC side can say in response, "CAIS* is the exception to the rule women will accept into the female fold, everyone else with XY genes we will not, " and that will suffice in argument and commentary, rather than cruelly dissecting their condition and ending up throwing them into the arms of TRAs who will support them unconditionally (because it helps their nefarious cause).

*Simplifying as I don't know enough about PAIS, MAIS etc

@ATeamAmy He deleted the abusive tweets. He called natal women by the terms I described. Feminists were particularly singled out.

But I cannot agree that DSDs have ANY place in the transgender argument.

They are though, because the are part of the whole structure of the belief system. It's not just that some people make direct arguments, in it's more sophisticated forms it's an indirect argument that's being made.

One example being the with regard to the idea that there is this thing called gender identity which is separate from sex. Some people, even some psychologists, think that because it is possible to have a person who is technically male, but who has a "real" self-identity as female - and what's more this is socially recognized so not some crazy fantasy - this is evidence that somehow gender identity is separate from or can form apart from our experienced of a sexed body.

So, because we know there are people with DSDs who are biologically male but identify as female we can extrapolate some kind of capacity for gender identity that is separate from the sexed body itself.

Since most of us don't want to deny that, people trying to push gender ideology find that's a powerful argument with many people, and then they use it to argue that there are other situations in which people might experience this different gender identification.

So it's not just the argument that being transgender is a dsd, it's this argument about the existence of a kind of gender essence which can in some cases be experienced as separate from the body. Dsd's are just evidence of that in this scenario.

Someone needs to do the work to really dig deep into this idea of gender identity - our sense of ourself as male or female - and how it's formed, IMO. Because the idea of some essence is just a bad conclusion but seems compelling to a lot of people who should know better.