Email from teacher: Child has come out as non binary

[GoingtoGlasgow]

As per title.

Received email from form tutor (Yr 7 if it matters) saying DC has spoke to them in confidence saying they are non binary. They would like permission from me to tell the subject teachers to use the pronouns they/them.

How do I respond to this?

Before the email (1 day before) got A message with a gif from DC saying 'I'm non binary'. Followed by a text 'do you accept me?'

I replied of course. Bloody love DC why would I not

Just feel they have entered puberty and don't identify with their biological sex.

Have discussed with them that I feel non binary from a gender point of view... don't do anything stereotypically girl like long hair, dresses, make up, prosecco. But don't want to change my pronouns because I definitely feel like the sex I was born with: difficult pregnancies, heavy periods and being seen as 'a woman with kids' when going for promotion.

They think humans can change sex. 'They have surgery'. I said in 1000 years when they find the person's bones that had a fake penis implanted on them and their breasts removed, will they identify that person as make or female. They said they woman. But still humans can change sex according to them.

Distinct from the waffling, sinister middle-aged type of TRA we get. The young ones have got the bright shiny zeal of youth, furiously delivering the script, no attempt at nuance whatsoever. I hope they come out the other side of it.

Btw you don't need to inspect chromosomes to tell what sex people are

You can say it as many times as you like. People have sexual orientations. They are either:

Opposite sex attracted
Same sex attracted
Bisexual
Asexual

If you are knowingly attracted to members of both sexes you are bisexual, however you slice it. A man (gender identity irrelevant) who looks like a woman isn't a woman. And vice versa. Even if you can't tell without clothes off.

Besides, the amount of trans people who can genuinely pass as the opposite sex in real life without filters and photoshop is vanishingly small.

I must say, I'm rather enjoying the hotheaded, prolific, multi-threaded fervency with which our young believer is pummelling out those bingo points.

The features that sexual attraction is based on can be changed. So if changing those features isn't changing sex, then sexual attraction isn't based on sex.

The "Mr Potato Head" model of sexual attraction here. Just stick some breasts on a potato, and cut a hole in it, what more could a heterosexual man or lesbian ask for?

Make a woman grow a beard and get a croaky voice? What gay man or straight woman could resist?

(I would actually be interested in some serious sexological research to see how common attraction to hormone-modified individuals is, specifically. How many people are there who would be specifically attracted to women and modified men, but not unmodified men? I think it's vanishingly uncommon, but I could be wrong).

[quote Lekisa658]@Ereshkigalangcleg
“Lesbians are biologically female people who are attracted exclusively to other biologically female people. It's a same sex attraction.”

By your definition of sex, "sex-based attraction" does not exist. People are attracted to external physical features, which are changeable, not to gametes or chromosomes.[/quote]
I'm sorry if within your bubble this is considered some sort of intelligent 'gotcha' but out here in the real world what you've posted here is utter nonsense. The fact is that people know the difference between the sexes. We know when someone is a man or a woman based on a multitude of factors. It's not just external physical features, though they absolutely factor. Humans are sexually dimorphic and from puberty onwards our bodies change so that our sex is distinctive through looks alone. But we also smell different, sound different and move our bodies entirely differently. To the degree that humans can deduce sex extremely accurately just by looking at point of light footage of people walking. We can't accurately deduce if the person is walking towards us or away but we can determine sex. Women are somewhat better at this than men but even men can almost always tell when someone is male or female. It's an important part of our evolutionary abilities.

People who are exclusively attracted to only one sex know when a person is that sex and when they aren't. They will never, ever, ever be capable of experiencing attraction to someone of the sex they aren't attracted to. Anyone who is genuinely physically attracted to both sexes, even if it's just one person ever from one of those sexes, even if that person presents themselves as the opposite gender, is bisexual.

I am with @TheCurrywurstPrion, I think your child is probably just exploring identity and just wants some control. I would be fine with teachers using them pronouns because with nothing to rebel against I think it likely not to be hugely long lived, and because if it was my child I would want them to Derek ownership of their identity. I would not though be allowing any surgical or medical intervention or breast binding etc at this age, or and when significantly older I would only countenance it with proper unbiased counselling.

I would also want to explore what education is happening at school and be having discussions about why biological sex is also important and why being a woman (assuming your dc is a biological girl) is something to be proud of.

And also, all of this is for them to explore, not you. Children aren't your property. Stop trying to dictate what others "should" be.

Children should be left to deal with sex, sexuality, preferences, etc? And parents should stay away?

I don't think so. But very revealing of your attitude towards safeguarding.

By your definition of sex, "sex-based attraction" does not exist. People are attracted to external physical features, which are changeable, not to gametes or chromosomes.

Haha! Of course it exists, and it's a protected characteristic by law.

And yes, you can try and disguise your sex to convince people that you are the opposite sex.

Also Lekisa658 doesn't make your head spin, and don't you realise what it makes you look like, when you use homosexuality and one breath to beat women over the head, saying that transphobia is exactly the same as homophobia, and then in the next breath, deny that homosexuality even exists?

[quote Lekisa658]@Goatsaregreat
“Trans issues should be irrelevant to Year 7 children who should be focusing on learning, growing, peer relationships, hobbies, playing sport, being a daughter, sister and family member and all the rest.

Adults insistent on sexualising children (...) are the problem.”

How are you any different from a homophobe using this exact argument against accepting gay children?[/quote]

Calling me a homophobe is just an attempt to silence views that you have no arguments against. As it happens I came out as a lesbian in my late teens and have navigated life as a lesbian mother. It is not homophobic to challenge adults using children for their own ends. I'm also a safeguarding 'expert' and know a lot about adult grooming, adults weaponising children and the lengths that dodgy adults will go to access children.
Children need to grow and develop free from these toxic influences. Parents are watching what is evidently social contagion amongst teenage girls.

There is nothing homophobic about stating that.

Decades of child developmental psychology have led to the understanding that identity develops alongside mental, intellectual, emotional, physical etc development, and in response to interaction with the wider world. It's fluid before maturity.
'Gender identity ideology' takes full advantage of that plus the neuroplasticity of children's and teen brains.
I am a mum (adult human female parent, who protects her DDs from gender ideology) and will stand up to the education system (and anyone) that supports it, and potentially cause either short term confusion and emotional distress or long-term harm to our children.

This is just transphobic psychological abuse, and an attempt to repress your child. It's no different than telling a gay teenager “But by the way, you'll always be seen as a sexual deviant and will never be able to have children.”

Wonderful stuff you are posting here today.

So, YOU are posting that a same sex attracted person is a 'sexual deviant'. Is that what you really think? and you are projecting that on to others?

Or... is that what your deep prejudice is ascribing to posters here, some of whom are same sex attracted and have children that are same sex attracted. Because in your deeply prejudiced trench you can only come up with another false comparison.

And despite the continued forced teaming, I don't believe that homosexuality is comparative to being 'trans' at all. Why do you think that?

I will continue to wait for those links though.

I will repeat my request:

Could you please link us up to the studies and the peer reviewed statistics that show exactly how many of our children will remain trans and non-binary into adulthood? And even further, it middle age?

Could you please show us the current diagnosis tools to tell the difference between a child or a teen experimenting and trying to conform to their peers vs one that will not desist?

Would you like to link up the studies from the past 18 months l that show that affirming only care is right and appropriate for all children and teens who are declaring they have a trans or non-binary identity?

Particularly those links to the numbers of just how many children and teens persist in their trans and non-binary identity into adulthood and beyond. Plus correlate that with the way that any parent can tell that their child is going to be one of those who persist.

And any evidence at all that suggests that a parent saying ‘ ok, I hear you. Let’s work with this for a while to see how best to approach it. Buy by the way, you cannot actually change sex, you will always be the sex you were born.’ And not immediately affirming only is causing harm to that child.

Please make sure that particular study is peer reviewed.

The features that sexual attraction is based on can be changed. So if changing those features isn't changing sex, then sexual attraction isn't based on sex.

Really? I like dicks. I really cannot see how any adult would ever believe that a dick can ever be replaced by a phalloplasty device. And frankly, any person who is saying that is absolutely phobic and hateful in my book. And determined to gaslight me or even worse, call me hateful because I won't have sex with anyone of my choosing if they did not have a dick.

Maybe YOUR sexual attraction is not based on sex. You are a fool to say that you represent other people outside your own bubble though.

This has likely been posted earlier but as our brand new to Mumsnet poster is busy keeping this thread bumped, here's an insightful and rather chilling piece about the terrible psychological consequences for children when they are socially affirmed as the opposite sex and then reach puberty:
www.transgendertrend.com/childhood-social-transition/

Well worth sharing with teachers and schools.

Also Lekisa658 doesn't make your head spin, and don't you realise what it makes you look like, when you use homosexuality and one breath to beat women over the head, saying that transphobia is exactly the same as homophobia, and then in the next breath, deny that homosexuality even exists?

It should, but self awareness is never a quality posters like this possess in abundance.

It really is enlightening to see this 'fervour' elements.

I mean, I think some posters think they have an angle that has never been tried before to enlighten the 'dinosaurs'. It is quite something to behold it coming through post after post, across different threads. I think it might be one of the usual TRAs buzzing us to 'liven' things up. Isn't that what one of them said not so long ago before they disappeared again?

@Lekisa658
“Your intentions are to convince a non-binary child to no longer identify as non-binary, yes?“

Did you say, “Child”?
Yes, you did.

When they say ‘non binary’ what they may be trying to say is that they don’t want to be thrust into our sexual world; or that they feel lost and need the validation from peers that a ‘special’ label will give them.

Let’s not as adults collude with pinning them down into some artificial ‘identity’.

Or perhaps convince a none binary child that none binary is in fact the most normal state of affairs

and to help them understand the difference between sex and gender

abs to address any underlying issues and children who feel the need to make such statements usually have a reason and that reason doesn't appear independently of the society they are in

You're just angry that people take issue with your unsolicited commentary on trans people's sex and gender.

You see someone say “being a lesbian is not strictly defined by genitals, some lesbians have dicks” and you instantly think this is directly "pressuring" every single lesbian into personally having sex with someone with a dick.

It's not.

You can continue to say 'it doesn't happen'. I know that pressure does happen. I also have witnessed the conversations that have 'censured' those teens who are being called 'transphobic' for not accepting the opposite sex genitals.

It is someone who has either a political agenda or is significantly misinformed on the coercive effect of language who believes that redefining lesbian to include males of any gender, with penises, or with Neo-vaginas, is not 'pressuring' lesbians to accept dicks.

By the way, the use of 'all or nothing' language such as

You see someone say “being a lesbian is not strictly defined by genitals, some lesbians have dicks” and you instantly think this is directly "pressuring" every single lesbian into personally having sex with someone with a dick.

is yet another very tired tactic. It never achieves anything except show the poster up as someone who has nothing to offer except emotive hyperbole and manipulation.

Please do keep posting in this tone as you are a wonderful live demonstration for the thousands of readers who are quietly reading along. Now and in the future.

Or perhaps convince a none binary child that none binary is in fact the most normal state of affairs

Considering just how many of us here on this very thread fall under the definition of trans and non-binary this cannot be said enough.

I can see that I am in the minority here but I would say yes to this. Non-binary is not the same as trans, this is not the same as agreeing to surgical or hormonal intervention, which the DC hasn't asked for anyway.
Keep talking, OP, and make sure they understand that their own feelings about their identity may well change as they get older and that's fine.

I can tell the sex of someone without looking at their genitals or ordering a chromosome test and so can almost all of the population otherwise we as a species would be extinct.
Non-binary does come under the trans umbrella and it is quite probable one leads to the other.

I think the visitor to this thread has shed a lot of light on to why sexual orientation and trans/non binary/gender identity are separate categories.

And in all of this we are talking about a Year 7 child, in the UK that is an 11 or 12 year old.

Puberty is difficult and non-binary or trans has been marketed as a way out of puberty, but it isn't and cannot be. The health consequences of non-binary even it is 'just' binding for girls or tucking for boys are horrendous. Given a lot of non-binary girls progress to wanting to be boys their medical future is bleak. I read that taking testosterone wipes 25 years off your lifetime, what other medical practices do this?

Also what do you think happens if you tell a child in the early stages of social transition that eventually they can change sex, doesn't that make any dysphoria worse as they go through puberty?

I hope the OP has gained some insight from this discussion and will follow up with the articles and links we have all shared. Social transition should not be taken lightly and where children are involved it is the parent's business to be involved.

So why are you trying to convince trans and non-binary children to stop being trans or non-binary?

Can you explain what you mean by a 'trans or non-binary' child @Lekisa658?

What makes a child 'trans or non-binary'?

How do they or anyone else know that they are 'trans or non-binary'?

Non-binary does come under the trans umbrella and it is quite probable one leads to the other.

They may come under the same umbrella for some, but non-binary is not the same as transitioning and does not necessarily lead to it, or to binding or tucking.

Also what do you think happens if you tell a child in the early stages of social transition that eventually they can change sex

This is the exact opposite of what the OP has told her child though?

There is also harm and risk attached to a parent refusing to acknowledge their DC's own sense of identity. Where are they going to talk about this if they get shut down at home? If the OP wants to have any chance of making sure the DC is properly informed and feels able to change their mind if they want to, she needs to be having a lot of conversations with them.

@Helleofabore

Or perhaps convince a none binary child that none binary is in fact the most normal state of affairs

Considering just how many of us here on this very thread fall under the definition of trans and non-binary this cannot be said enough.

You... don't, though?