Email from teacher: Child has come out as non binary

[GoingtoGlasgow]

As per title.

Received email from form tutor (Yr 7 if it matters) saying DC has spoke to them in confidence saying they are non binary. They would like permission from me to tell the subject teachers to use the pronouns they/them.

How do I respond to this?

Before the email (1 day before) got A message with a gif from DC saying 'I'm non binary'. Followed by a text 'do you accept me?'

I replied of course. Bloody love DC why would I not

Just feel they have entered puberty and don't identify with their biological sex.

Have discussed with them that I feel non binary from a gender point of view... don't do anything stereotypically girl like long hair, dresses, make up, prosecco. But don't want to change my pronouns because I definitely feel like the sex I was born with: difficult pregnancies, heavy periods and being seen as 'a woman with kids' when going for promotion.

They think humans can change sex. 'They have surgery'. I said in 1000 years when they find the person's bones that had a fake penis implanted on them and their breasts removed, will they identify that person as make or female. They said they woman. But still humans can change sex according to them.

@donquixotedelamancha

How do I respond to this?

I'd respond with absolutely fucking not.

Social transition is a psychiatric treatment which should only occur under appropriate medical supervision. The GIDS guidance on this is here:
gids.nhs.uk/parents/advice/social-transition-younger-children

Amateurs randomly pissing around with kids identity is a terrible idea. Personally I would be speaking to the head about what the schools policy is.

The GIDS guidance does not say social transition is a psychiatric treatment that should only occur under medical supervision. In fact, it says the opposite:

"At GIDS we do not take a position on early social transition, either for or against. Whether a child formally transitions is a decision that families and children make together."

TBF, while the GIDS guidance does not call social transition a psychiatric treatment or one that should only be done under medical supervision, it does say rather more than the two sentences above and warns of possible difficulties in backtracking once a trans identity is adopted:

“ It is important to be supportive, where you can, about your child exploring their gender identity. It is also important to consider how you can do this without rejecting the possibility of their current identity changing in the future. This may seem very unlikely indeed for some young people. However, others have told us how hard it was to further explore their identities, or consider transitioning back, once they and other people had fought so hard for them to be able to express themselves in a certain way.”

gids.nhs.uk/parents-and-carers

rogdmum

Thank you for all your posts. I learn more from them every time.

And thank you for posting the fuller picture on that guidance. I can see just how some people choose not to post it. The reality is that this is never ‘clear cut’ even with supposedly ‘simply’ using new names and pronouns.

Despite many people trying to imply that it is simple, and clear cut. Considering the degree of poor mental health I have witnessed around these identities, absolutely nothing is simple if a child ( and they are still children) feels they cannot go back.

I don't think this was the best episode of this podcast but there are loads of others with expert speakers

player.captivate.fm/episode/575c8a8d-e464-4de6-a5f4-92dc3718cf85

There always have been fads and fashions, and teenagers have always been the ones more likely to copy friends.
A hair-style of clothing trend will usually pass, but for good reason we try to stop them having, for example, a slogan tatooed on their faces. We don't allow them to marry or have sex officially till 16, and have rules about drinking and about taking a driving test or joining the army, all limited by age-rules.
It is known human brains are demonstrably different before maturing, and normally not able to use adult judgement till 25, so the argument could be made for that as the age of becoming adult.

First of all, I would suggest that you DON'T give permission for pronoun or name change at this stage. She only just started having these feelings in the last what - week? few days? There is no other issue I can think of where school/adults would suggest moving so quickly. E.g. "I want to drop Geography/cut my long hair off/move schools/stop living at Mum's and move to Dads". In all of these situations, the adult involved would listen, but then advise to wait a while and see if they still feel the same way next week/month. This is no different. There's no rush to change pronouns, no benefit to doing it sooner rather than later (and possibly active disadvantages of doing it early). Plus, it's really hard for young people to change their minds back from a name change: everyone cheers along when they decide they want to be called Aero/Delta/Whatever, but it's then really hard to go back and ask all the teachers to call them Katie again. Much easier to just have friends use whatever name they choose, so that if/when they change back, it can happen more organically.

Also, I suggest you make sure your child is clear on what "gender-affirming surgery" is, and what it can and can't achieve. It's basically like changing your nose to make it look like an ear. However it might look on the outside, you still can't hear with it, and you probably can't smell with it anymore either.

Specific things I would want my child to know:

1. Surgery is limited: It cannot create the biological functions of the opposite sex, so male body can't produce eggs/have periods/give birth, and female bodies can't produce sperm/get erections.
2. Surgery is risky: high risk of failure, complications, further surgeries need to correct mistakes, even death
3. Surgery is invasive, painful and limited:

For FTM: females will lose a chunk of their arm/leg skin and have permanent scarring there, neo-penis may well have hair all on it (as formed from arm/leg skin which has hair follicles), neo-penis will not become erect and will need to be pumped up manually before intercourse. Also there is significant risk of vaginal atrophy, then need for hysterectomy, and infertility. For MTF: penis is removed, skin of penis removed and sewn into the inside lining of newly created cavity called a "neo-vagina". Neo-vagina will not self-clean, and will need to be regularly washed internally. Neo-vagina will not stay open by itself. Will require regular "dilation" i.e. sitting for a period of time regularly with an object in the neo-vagina; Neo-vagina may get infected. Neo vagina will have limited sensation.

If you can break down the "people can have surgery to change sex" and explain what it all really entails, you may well find that she takes stock of the path that she is preparing to take.

@GoingtoGlasgow

I know your child has said they want to be non-binary, not the opposite sex, but there are quite a few parents whose children start with non-binary and then progress.

This is an extremely interesting and persuasive article written by a clinical psychologist about the pitfalls of childhood social transition and why it's so dangerous.

It will certainly give you an argument as to why you don't want it to happen, and might be something that you could show the school.

I certainly think most people reading it will instantly grasp the issue.

www.transgendertrend.com/childhood-social-transition/

Hi OP lots of great advice on this thread. The school have done the right thing in informing you, but the flippant nature of the email suggests the tutor and probably the school do not fully understand what social transition is and how once a child is on the train they can't get off. As other posters have said I can echo at our school, most girls start of as bi(sexual), then come out as non binary then trans. Usually they are just lesbians so you will get two girls who say they are boys in a relationship.

Social transition follows the affirmative approach and almost always leads to further transition.

Watchful waiting is the alternative. I think it will be helpful to send some of the resources from Transgender Trend and Safe Schools Alliance to your school, specifically to the tutor, safeguarding lead and head of RSE.
Here are some useful links:
www.transgendertrend.com/schools-resources/

safeschoolsallianceuk.net/resources-2/factsheets/

As others have said if your child gets distressed or threatens self harm if you don't agree then see this as a red flag. I think you can block certain keywords via your internet provider so this will stop him or her accessing material that is effectively grooming.

Peer pressure is massive. My daughter is 14 and a lesbian. She was hanging out with her girlfriend's friends of whom two were trans, and one was non binary. When she spoke to each of them individually about how harmful transitioning can be they all agreed with her, but as a group they denied these views. This is not something to be taken lightly and if your child is your daughter it really is troubling.

This is a good film for you to watch which shows the social contagion of non binary and trans ideology and how insidious it is.

This is from a detransitioner but is eloquent about some of the influences that had made her feel she was the wrong gender . It may not relate exactly to what you say about your DC but it is worth reading.

lacroicsz.substack.com/p/by-any-other-name?utm_source=url

‘Wrong gender” I meant wrong sex. She was a trans boy, and your DC says they are non binary, but it had a lot about the social pressures.

Gender:A Wider Lens - gender-a-wider-lens.captivate.fm/episode/40-social-transition-a-powerful-psychosocial-intervention

Genspect guidance on social transition- genspect.org/guidance-on-social-transition/

Ok this is going to sound harsh but if I had gotten a text message from my DS saying he was NB and asking if I accepted him, I would have gone straight to him for an in person talk. I would have said that I will always love him but tbh, I'm disappointed that he is participating in a culture that is potentially extremely harmful to people with genuine marginalised sexualities. And I would have talked to him about the long term consequences of this new culture for gay, lesbian and bisexual people in same sex relationships. That young, straight people trying to co-opt a place in their culture has already eroded so many of their spaces and unfortunately is beginning to impact on their safety. I would tell my DS that I will support him in who ever he is inside. But that it will be a real struggle to accept their actions, when and if those actions hurt others. And that I'm not disappointed now, because they didn't know. But that I would like them to keep an open mind and learn with me about how damaging this culture can be to the people who's culture they are claiming to have a part of.

I would also let them know, that if they are homosexual or bisexual, I wouldn't accept that. Because to 'accept' that implies that there is something not so good in their sexuality that requires accepting. There would be nothing in that for me to accept, just like there would be nothing for me to accept in them being heterosexual. Their sexuality would never, for one single second, change how much I love them, like them, feel about them. But if they are heterosexual, I would expect them not to infringe on the needs and rights of people who might, throughout their lives, be made to feel like they need acceptance and might not get it.

I honestly think, @GoingtoGlasgow, that someone of any age who wants their pronouns to be they/them to feel respected even if they can't hear themselves being talked about would benefit from counselling to help them to unpick the whole length of CCP-hue-approved bunting designed to be hung all along both sides of the Great Wall that statement immediately sets flapping, sharply, in the mind’s eye.

Were I you, I would be quite anxious to know not only about DC’s interactions with peers at school (& at any extra-curricular activities they may do) but also about how & where/when they’re engaging (& with whom, precisely) with others online.

There is absolutely a logic to seeing claiming non-binary [trans]* identity as a way to obtain privilege & protection: it moves you away from being one of “The Cis”, who are openly mocked, derided, & villainised; & it affords you special status. Please don’t misunderstand me, I’m not saying I think you have some horrible child on a power &/or manipulation trip; rather, my concern is very much that they may have been made to feel so powerless that they are now frantically trying to find a way to protect themselves.

Are NB students allowed to change separately/privately for PE? That’s a tangible benefit I can understand

• some NB people ID as trans & others do not

Sorry, even small seizures & MN do not mix.

Where that tails off was meant to be about how, if ALL trans students (inc NB ones) are offered alternative changing provision for PE that would be a huge pull-factor to girls, particularly, already experiencing push-factors in terms of how they relate to their gender & their [sexed] bodies.

The school may have been doing LGBT History Month stuff (if you’re in the UK, at least) during February, which may have layered things up rather, too.

And before I try & throw my phone to the moon again I think I should stop trying to post: I didn’t want to leave the seizure-broken unfinished one with its jagged edge like that though.

I hope everything works out with & for your DC - whatever is going on, this must be very stressful for you both

a culture that is potentially extremely harmful to people with genuine marginalised sexualities.

Of course, many of the girls declaring themselves trans are lesbians.

NitroNine
“There is absolutely a logic to seeing claiming non-binary [trans]* identity as a way to obtain privilege & protection: it moves you away from being one of “The Cis”, who are openly mocked, derided, & villainised; & it affords you special status. Please don’t misunderstand me, I’m not saying I think you have some horrible child on a power &/or manipulation trip; rather, my concern is very much that they may have been made to feel so powerless that they are now frantically trying to find a way to protect themselves.“

A de-transitioner called Helena (whose article I posted earlier about what influences had led her to believe she was trans aged 15) wrote about the stigma among peers of being ‘cishet’.

@Helleofabore

a culture that is potentially extremely harmful to people with genuine marginalised sexualities.

Of course, many of the girls declaring themselves trans are lesbians.

Sure, many trans girls are lesbians, but certainly not in the way you think.

Received email from form tutor (Yr 7 if it matters) saying DC has spoke to them in confidence saying they are non binary. They would like permission from me to tell the subject teachers to use the pronouns they/them.

It seems to me that the school has overstepped the mark with their email. They should have suggested to the child to talk to their parents about this. The only thing that should have been said in a communication between school and parents would be to mention that the child had spoken to their teacher about it.

By asking permission to do something (pronoun changes) without further discussion with the parents is taking away the parents' autonomy as primary carers for their child. The school (much less a single teacher as seems to be the case here) has no authority to do this.

What the teacher has said here is 'Your child wants to do this. I agree, do you give your permission?'

It should be 'Your child wants to do this. Please talk to them and let the school know what you want to do.'

Op I think your initial response was the right one, acceptance, not disappointment. My ds is gay and has several NB friends. They’re all lovely (shy) kids that clearly reject gender stereotypes and straight male attention. The labels work for them and help them to express themselves. I would always aim to be a parent your child goes to rather than hides from.

What the teacher has said here is 'Your child wants to do this. I agree, do you give your permission?'

It should be 'Your child wants to do this. Please talk to them and let the school know what you want to do.'

I don’t think agreement or approval from the teacher is implied, necessarily. And I assume they have assumed discussion would be had upon reading this email. I’d be reassured the school recognised they needed my permission as a parent, actually.

OP, I don’t agree with gender as a construct so non-binary is pointless to me but in this instance (Year 7) I’d want to keep dialogue open and not shut down anything so I’d agree to the pronoun change (as it’s largely pointless but obviously important to your DC) but I’d probably also have a conversation with school about ‘watchful waiting’ and scepticism in general and a balanced view on gender issues. I’d want to know their training and support as well - whose philosophy are they buying into?

At this stage I would simply respect their wishes but have gentle discussions at home emphasising it's fine to present as non binary but gender reassignment is drugs and plastic surgery that change your appearance but doesn't make you the opposite sex, you can't change your chromosomes.

Explain she should dress and act how she feels comfortable and not feel she has to conform to female gender stereotypes, you can still be a woman and present more neutral visually

@Lekisa658

I genuinely feel bad for the kid and the abuse you'll put them through because of your rigid, repressive ideology.

Do you feel good coming onto what amounts to a support thread and abusing the parent here?

So kind…. And you are obviously on the ‘right side of history’ too!

Sure, many trans girls are lesbians, but certainly not in the way you think.

And young lesbians are being pressured into doing dick by their peers. I have watched the conversations happen. This is happening.

You ok with that? Quite comfortable that not one lesbian is being harmed in this forced redefinition of the word?

Quite comfortable that young lesbians are being pressured into having sex with males that they don’t want in the name of being ‘inclusive’?