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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Surrogacy in Ukraine - Times article

165 replies

Soontobe60 · 20/02/2022 09:20

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/surrogate-mothers-fear-pressure-to-flee-ukraine-gsntx9z7f?shareToken=39849d90d0863ecb43166b4738993526
So it would seem that in Ukraine, they admit that surrogacy is big business that will suffer economically if Russia invades. And the poor foreign clients will want the surrogates to move out of the country if it happens - despite them having their own families! Talk about exploitation!!

OP posts:
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FannyCann · 09/03/2022 18:25

There's much higher demand there is supply. In the UK you’ve got to support your surrogate yourself and that takes a lot of energy and time. Surrogates, because they're not getting paid, often want an ongoing relationship and some couples just don't want that

Isn't that a familiar theme @OhHolyJesus ?
One of the justifications for the outrageous court of appeal decision to fund a woman to have four surrogate babies in the USA was that understandably the woman didn't want a relationship with the surrogate mother(s). She just wanted to go to USA and buy those babies.

And one of the men on the programme The Surrogates (bbc iplayer) moaned that the surrogate mothers had all the power and they got to choose. I mean. The cheek of it. Wanting to choose who to have a baby for/with. Hmm

OhHolyJesus · 09/03/2022 18:48

Yes @FannyCann and the women in the Ukraine don't necessarily have any contact with the baby buyers at all.

Horrific news, a maternity complex has been bombed.

twitter.com/bbcyaldahakim/status/1501577900272885768?s=21

yellowtwo · 09/03/2022 19:54

Rosanna Davidson and her husband, who had used a surrogate Mother in Ukraine a few years ago, have offered this woman to come live with them, but the woman is 1300km from the boarder of Poland so it can't happen. Davidson for some reason also mentioned how "grateful" the surrogate Mother was for the offer. Hmm

www.google.com/amp/s/www.rsvplive.ie/news/celebs/rosanna-davison-says-surrogate-unable-26415658.amp

OchonAgusOchonOh · 09/03/2022 20:19

[quote yellowtwo]Rosanna Davidson and her husband, who had used a surrogate Mother in Ukraine a few years ago, have offered this woman to come live with them, but the woman is 1300km from the boarder of Poland so it can't happen. Davidson for some reason also mentioned how "grateful" the surrogate Mother was for the offer. Hmm

www.google.com/amp/s/www.rsvplive.ie/news/celebs/rosanna-davison-says-surrogate-unable-26415658.amp[/quote]
I wonder has she signed up on the Red Cross portal for people willing to house Ukranian refugees or is she only willing to house those who she has personally benefitted from?

OchonAgusOchonOh · 11/03/2022 12:13

An interesting statement by an MP about surrogacy twitter.com/KevinBrennanMP/status/1501905853242351622

Absolutely no concern for the surrogate mother. The only concern is the baby and the couple who are buying the baby.

SapatSea · 11/03/2022 15:25

I agree Ochon . The Irish Government approach to waiving the documetation usually needed to bring a baby from another country was that the babies born to Ukranian"surrogate"mothers are unequivocally "Irish babies".
I hate the term "surrogate" and especially "gestational carrier" - just no recognition of how the mother's very life blood is nourishing the baby and how we now know that mother and baby exchange and share cells (for their ifetime) apart from all the other psychological and bonding effects and health risks of birth and pregnancy. This is acknowledged when you are giving birth to your own baby but when the baby has been bought through surrogacy then it doesn't seem to apply and the surroagte mother is deemed to have "no biological connection" to the baby and is merely viewed as an incubator by many.

Livelifeinthebuslane · 11/03/2022 15:32

@FannyCann

The comments to that article are heartening. People seeing this for what it is.
I just noticed I had a comment deleted for breaking the guidelines that said that lots of people think that the baby won't remember it but taking it away from the sounds and smells of its mother can lead to trauma that stays in the baby's nervous system for life.

What guideline would that break?

FannyCann · 11/03/2022 22:42

I've no idea @Livelifeinthebuslane
Deletions can often seem somewhat random, and one can on,y assume someone has complained for some reason.

FannyCann · 11/03/2022 22:45

A new post from Surrogacy Dispatches:

Questions Intended Parents are Asking

Intended parents have questions. The following are slightly edited versions of questions I've heard this past week on Zoom calls, in seminars, online and through agencies helping intended parents.

Can we still get into Ukraine?
Can we still come to Ukraine for the birth if it's in the west?
Can we go in through one border and leave via another less busy one?
How will we find our surrogate after the birth?
How will we find our baby after the birth?
How will we get to our baby if it's born in a war zone?

What documents do we need to get the baby out of the country?
Are birth certificates still being issued in Ukraine?
How long is it taking in Lviv to issue medical birth certificates?
Are medical birth certificates the same as official birth certificates?
Are the organizations that do the official birth certificates open?
Are notaries open?

Do we still need to prove we have a genetic connection?
Do we still need a waiver from the surrogate saying she is not the mother?
Do we still need a PCR test?
Can we just walk out of the country carrying our child?
Can we take the child out of the country without any documentation?

Should we move our surrogate out of the Dnipro region?
Can a surrogate still get out of Odessa?
Is it safe for a surrogate to stay in Poltava?
How can we get safe passage for our surrogate out of Kherson? She wants to leave.
Any news from Kharkhiv — in particular La Vita Nova?
Can the surrogate travel by train or is it too crowded?
How do I find a ride share out of Kyiv?
Can I fly my surrogate to the US?

Wouldn't it be better if the surrogate just left Ukraine?
How do I convince my surrogate to leave?
Can someone help me convince my surrogate to leave?

Will I have to adopt my own baby if it's born outside Ukraine?
If our child is born in Poland or Hungary or one of countries that does not recognize surrogacy, would we have any legal connection to the child at all?
Will it be difficult to adopt, even if we're both tied to the child genetically?
Can my husband's name at least be on the birth certificate if the baby is born outside Ukraine?
Will my husband have custody if he's on the birth certificate in the Czech Republic?
In the Czech Republic will the surrogate mother be listed as the mother?
If the baby is born in the Czech Republic, when I get back home will I have to get lawyers involved?
Our surrogate is 37 weeks pregnant and we're trying to decide whether to have the baby in Lviv or move her to the Czech Republic. What should we do?

Do the surrogates in Lviv have enough food?
Do they need anything?
Can we help in any way?
Will you help reunite the surrogate with her family after the birth?
Are there any contingencies in place if Putin goes after Lviv?

Do we have to use hard currency there now?
How much money should we take?

What is happening with our embryos?
Are our frozen embryos safe in Kyiv? We have five ready to transfer.
Can I move my embryos to Greece?
Where can I move my embryos so when I do surrogacy I can get my name on the birth certificate?
Is it possible to transport embryos out at this time?

Can we terminate the contract with our surrogate? There has been no transfer yet.
Any idea when transfers will start up again?
Once the conflict is over, do you expect an increase or decrease in the number of available surrogates in Ukraine?

FannyCann · 11/03/2022 22:48

Out of 51 questions these four seem to be the only ones showing any concern for the surrogate mothers and their situation:

"Do the surrogates in Lviv have enough food?
Do they need anything?
Can we help in any way?
Will you help reunite the surrogate with her family after the birth?"

FannyCann · 11/03/2022 22:51

Others show a shocking lack of understanding of the realities of war.

"Are the organizations that do the official birth certificates open?
Are notaries open?"

What do we think?

FannyCann · 11/03/2022 22:53

And the last two.....ConfusedHmm

"Any idea when transfers will start up again?
Once the conflict is over, do you expect an increase or decrease in the number of available surrogates in Ukraine?"

OhHolyJesus · 13/03/2022 08:18

The selfishness of these commissioning couples is palpable. I wonder whether this really is the best way to reassure people that surrogacy isn't the trade of babies, do they think that the majority of people hearing about this and about what is happening in Ukraine are going to give their sympathies to people who have embryos 'trapped' in Ukraine over the actual live people? Men and boys fighting and women and children fleeing, but oh those poor embryos...

Article here on the companies conducting this abhorrent practice and also with an interview of a nanny who looks after the babies; with two sons and a husband fighting, she refuses to leave her colleagues and the babies.

"The business has thrived in Ukraine largely because of poverty. Surrogate mothers here typically earn about $15,000 per child. Ukraine does not allow surrogacy for same-sex couples, or for couples who wish to choose the sex of their child.
Fourteen companies offer the service in Ukraine, including BioTexCom, the largest, which is running the basement nursery in Kyiv."

The CEO of BioTexCom wonders if he made the wrong choice but later they do quote surrogate mothers

"Anna, an expectant surrogate mother who, like others quoted, spoke on the condition that only her first name be used, has not left Kyiv because her husband enlisted as a volunteer soldier and she wants to be near him. She is also caring for her own son, she said by telephone.

“I really don’t want to leave him behind. But I have to save two lives: one inside me and the other nine years old and running around” their apartment, she said.
The biological parents of the baby she is carrying are from China, she said. While they have a stake in her safety, they cannot now make decisions about her movements.

“I hope the war will end by the time I need to give birth,” she said...

Ania, 26, who has two children of her own, is pregnant as a surrogate mother for the second time. The first time, the baby could not immediately be picked up by clients because of Covid-19 travel restrictions. “I’m just not lucky,” she said.
She is now 31 weeks pregnant with twins and living near Lviv after fleeing Kamianske, in central Ukraine. Her clients, she said, want her to move to Western Europe. But she is afraid to do so, because she may be required to register as the babies’ legal guardian under the less permissive surrogacy laws that prevail outside Ukraine."

And the commissioning couple for the baby Ania is carrying moved to be with her but...

In November, as alarms were being raised about the possibility of war in Ukraine, Frederic insisted that the surrogacy agency let him contact Ania directly. He and his wife went to Ukraine, and now live together near Lviv with Ania, her husband and her two children.
“We feel very lonely in this process,” Frederic said. One of their many problems is that all the documents proving that he and his wife are the twins’ genetic parents were left behind in Kyiv.
Have you heard of any family with the same problem as ours?” he asked.

medicalmarketnews.com/2022/03/13/in-a-kyiv-basement-19-surrogate-babies-are-trapped-by-war-but-kept-alive-by-nannies/

OhHolyJesus · 13/03/2022 08:26

From the Daily Mail.

"Old ladies were offering to give up their seats for us in the basement bunker,' recalls Metaish. 'We were humbled by their selflessness. Thinking of what they are going through still when we are home is heart-breaking. Every night we thank God we got to safety and pray for those still there.'

"'We keep watching scenes on TV and it's surreal, because we lived through some of that,' Manisha, 43, tells me. 'I think in many ways we're still in shock.'"

They returned to Bedfordshire also with his elderly parents who had travelled for the birth. The article mentions the surrogate mother who initially they decided they wouldn't even meet, they say they are in touch but not a word on where or how she is. This woman had two embryos implanted so they could have twins.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10606467/British-couple-frantic-race-escape-Kyiv-newborn-twins.html

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10606467/British-couple-frantic-race-escape-Kyiv-newborn-twins.html

SapatSea · 13/03/2022 13:02

In that article the couple also say the initial plan was to opt for a British surrogate, but they ruled it out as under UK law, there is potential for the surrogate to keep the baby even if genetically it isn't theirs and they couldn't take that chance. They also mention it cost £10k - seems it's cheaper and a lot less chance of having to meet the mother/interact or have ongoing contact than in th UK. The poor mother had to have a c section

FannyCann · 13/03/2022 14:35

Breaking news from Natalie Gamble Law

All existing rules are going to be bent to bring over pregnant surrogate mothers as well as newly delivered babies (will that be just the babies, not the mothers?) to the U.K.

twitter.com/ngambleassoc/status/1502972824033583110?s=21

Surrogacy in Ukraine - Times article
Surrogacy in Ukraine - Times article
FannyCann · 13/03/2022 14:38

I hope the surrogate mothers won't get sent to live with the commissioning parents. It's all a bit coercive don't you think?

Presumably the contracts they signed in Ukraine are now meaningless.
I wonder what this means with regard to payment? I can't see many of these mothers wanting to keep the babies, but I'm sure they will want their payment.
Remember surrogacy in the U.K. is altruistic and no payment except for reasonable expenses is allowed....

FannyCann · 13/03/2022 14:49

And meanwhile Ukrainian women who are pregnant with their own children are giving birth in bombed out hospitals, and having to flee along with everyone else.

I feel horror for all Ukrainians, and particularly for vulnerable women and children.
I'm just not sure women who are pregnant with "British" babies should be prioritised above others or if they are I'm not sure that the provisions of the law will protect them from other potential problems, namely controlling commissioning parents. Wouldn't it actually be better for them to be accessing refugee services in their own right?

Please don't misinterpret me as being unkind towards them. I think if they are scooped up by the commissioning parents and taken into their homes that is, to put it nicely, a very odd situation to be in fraught with potential difficulties.

FannyCann · 13/03/2022 15:39

4000 Ukrainian babies have been born since the start of the war.
But let's prioritise the "British" ones...

Born to the sound of bombs, the babies bringing hope amid the despair of war.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/1b45c21a-a228-11ec-a1de-983f3d5a1668?shareToken=56e9ad37ad9359a57f202abccbcefa2cc_

OchonAgusOchonOh · 13/03/2022 18:59

@FannyCann

I hope the surrogate mothers won't get sent to live with the commissioning parents. It's all a bit coercive don't you think?

Presumably the contracts they signed in Ukraine are now meaningless.
I wonder what this means with regard to payment? I can't see many of these mothers wanting to keep the babies, but I'm sure they will want their payment.
Remember surrogacy in the U.K. is altruistic and no payment except for reasonable expenses is allowed....

Presumably the mother gets paid on delivery. If that is the case, surely bringing her to the UK would mean paying her would be illegal under UK law? Wonder how they'll fudge that one.
FannyCann · 14/03/2022 22:42

I hope this link works. A report from CNN on surrogate born babies in Kiev. A nursery full of crying babies. At least two who are about six months old - why had they not been collected months ago? Will their buyers make any effort at all to collect them now? The reporter seemed quite emotional describing how these babies are desperate for the contact that most six month old babies enjoy. And a weeping surrogate mother, handing over her baby before heading back to her family.

It's truly sickening.

twitter.com/cnn/status/1503483046443593731?s=21

Slothtoes · 16/03/2022 13:37

BBC news: War in Ukraine: Surrogate babies wait for parents in Kyiv bomb shelter

‘At least 21 babies born through surrogacy, are stuck in a bomb shelter nursery in Kyiv. They're waiting for their biological parents, who live abroad, to take them home. But the war has made the journey into the capital too risky.’

The video has no footage of the room with all the babies all kept together. Individual close ups of babies lying on their blankets on the floor instead. They’re not newborns, they look up to a few months old. It must be terrible for the babies with nobody to bond with. And for the staff too. Nobody mentioned the women who gave birth to them at all and where they are now. Hmm

Video here: www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/world-europe-60764100

Clymene · 16/03/2022 16:23

[quote Slothtoes]BBC news: War in Ukraine: Surrogate babies wait for parents in Kyiv bomb shelter

‘At least 21 babies born through surrogacy, are stuck in a bomb shelter nursery in Kyiv. They're waiting for their biological parents, who live abroad, to take them home. But the war has made the journey into the capital too risky.’

The video has no footage of the room with all the babies all kept together. Individual close ups of babies lying on their blankets on the floor instead. They’re not newborns, they look up to a few months old. It must be terrible for the babies with nobody to bond with. And for the staff too. Nobody mentioned the women who gave birth to them at all and where they are now. Hmm

Video here: www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/world-europe-60764100[/quote]
Wow that German couple at the end Shock 'we risked our lives for him'

Good grief.

cafedesreves · 16/03/2022 20:12

Just came in on here to post that link. It's honestly so dreadfully sad and makes me feel sick.

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