Why isn't The Sun all over this?

[blueirises]

I've been a lurker here for quite a while, but I may have missed something. I just wonder why The Sun, with its history of "exposing" "Looney left" policies, doesn't seem to be covering the mess that Labour, the Lib Dems and the Greens are making of self-ID and other anti-women ideas. Are they hanging fire until closer to a general election, or do they really not think their readership want to know about the possibility of men getting changed or whatever next to their wives, daughters, mothers etc?

So what? Just because it is possible to be abusive doesn't make being abusive okay.

Theres something else that's pretty abusive going on here.
Here's a clue. It's not showing people pictures of girls who have had their breasts removed and the a big sleeve of skin removed from their arm to fashion some sort of penis.

If it's not the pictures what do you think it might be?

I have never posted pictures of my children on the internet at all. If I’ve ever shared them it’s been strictly limited to friends or family with full privacy settings.

The internet is not a private space.

@barleybadminton

If this was only an issue within these communities it would STILL be one causing distress to a large number of people, wouldn't it? And so would need addressing.

Oh don't get me wrong in those communities it is causing distress. Most of the feminists I know are very concerned about the gender critical movement and LGBT people even more so, especially as it's increasingly leaking into attacks on gay men, gay culture and LGBT institutions. There's a real determination to stay united and resist this, you must have seen all the LGBT orgs condemning EHRC recently - that very much reflects sentiment on the ground.

In my experience barleybadminton is right on this point; the community is certainly coming together against what it perceives as divisive attacks against its own. There is widespread general distaste for what is considered GC anti-trans sentiment, and real anger on the ground, in the UK cities I am in anyway.

I think it might also be because we are all back together again and socialising in person in large numbers which wasn't possible during lockdowns and restrictions and this perhaps made online discussions appear disproportionately and superficially influential.

It's good to know when you're actually amongst everyone again that the anti-trans sentiment is not holding any sway amongst the community and it continues to be a welcoming-of-all and supportive atmosphere.

Or perhaps a campaign to remind people that reproducing intimate photos that you don't have consent to use is both a copyright violation and abuse.
Not necessarily a copyright infringement. There are exceptions and any half-decent lawyer could argue for them to fall into one or more of them.

The general population are, without a doubt, waking up to the anti woman movement which is gender ideology. It's actually quite amusing to this being downplayed - it's desperate reaching.

It's not anti trans sentiment. It's pro women. The arrogance of men is quite something really isn't it. Women will not be backing down on this. Not now. Not ever.

In my experience barleybadminton is right on this point; the community is certainly coming together against what it perceives as divisive attacks against its own. There is widespread general distaste for what is considered GC anti-trans sentiment, and real anger on the ground, in the UK cities I am in anyway.

I think it might also be because we are all back together again and socialising in person in large numbers which wasn't possible during lockdowns and restrictions and this perhaps made online discussions appear disproportionately and superficially influential.

It's good to know when you're actually amongst everyone again that the anti-trans sentiment is not holding any sway amongst the community and it continues to be a welcoming-of-all and supportive atmosphere.

The loudest voices do not necessarily reflect a wider viewpoint. Lesbian women in particular have been bullied out of their spaces. Look at that American university LGBT group where one by one all of the same-sex attracted people were leaving as the club filled up with straight people who had come up with an interesting new identity.

suggestions always claims there’s a massive LGBT community like a kind of fantasy of 30s Berlin meeting in underground gay clubs or something. If only that existed - maybe it does in a couple of places in Brighton and London; but if anyone can find this “community” anywhere else, would they point me to it? I really want to know where all the masses of “community” lesbians hang out because somehow I didn’t get that memo.

@DdraigGoch

Or perhaps a campaign to remind people that reproducing intimate photos that you don't have consent to use is both a copyright violation and abuse. Not necessarily a copyright infringement. There are exceptions and any half-decent lawyer could argue for them to fall into one or more of them.

There are very few exceptions as it happens, especially when it comes to photographs, although copyright violation, whilst illegal, is the least of the problem of the use of intimate images without consent to make a political statement.

Copyright violation is the real issue here, not mutilating children. Got it.

@Linguini

Copyright violation is the real issue here, not mutilating children. Got it.

You know the detransitioners you claim to care about so much have pretty much unanimously asked gender critical activists not to talk about mutiliated bodies. It is deeply offensive.

@Rheopecticfluid I'm noticing the same thing. The focus in discussions that I see on an increasing level isn't against a group, it's about being fair for girls and women.

It simply isn't fair that females are being expected to lose safety, dignity, sporting and scholarship opportunities to males.

@barleybadminton why should society prioritise males over females?

You know the detransitioners you claim to care about so much have pretty much unanimously asked gender critical activists not to talk about mutiliated bodies. It is deeply offensive.

Are they a hive mind now?

I find people who think it's ok to ruin children's lives and bodies deeply offensive. Actually I think more than that. About people like you. But sadly it's not publishable here.

You know the detransitioners you claim to care about so much have pretty much unanimously asked gender critical activists not to talk about mutiliated bodies. It is deeply offensive.

They really haven’t. Why do you always post things that are just untrue?

Anyways, there's plenty of pictures out there of people who are not detransitioners. Not yet anyway.

They really haven’t. Why do you always post things that are just untrue?

To pursue their own abusive goal.

Quite amazing how individuals and groups who have spent the last years openly eroding child safeguarding, facilitating social contagion, trying to normalise porn and providing some of the most unsuitable porn addicted role models for children ever, suddenly have a fit of the vapours because some children allegedly attended an expensive conference for adults run by a wealthy lobby group and may have seen photos of double mastectomies that have been shared online.

The cognitive dissonance is, as ever, off the scale.

Ohoho! You admit detransitioners exist now!

I personally do prefer to avoid some terminology, because I think it has an impact on people trying to cultivate healthy body image after detransitioning, but I thought you were under the impression no such people existed...

While I see the general public focusing on thinking more about women and children (increased awareness of the truth), a minority are clearly minimising, deflecting, denying, manipulating, all for damage control... perhaps there is fear at the increasing numbers of the general public becoming really sick of hearing about one group, when everyone else to them is low priority.

... have asked gender critical activists not to talk about mutiliated bodies

Oh ok, we yet again can't talk about the thing that is happening that never happens. Got it.

That's just not true Barley.
I follow a number of detransitioners on Youtube and every single one of them expresses regret at what they have done to their bodies. One in particular talks about how they have "ruined" themselves, "broken" themselves.
Others speak of their sorrow at never being able to speak with their old voice again after testosterone irrevocably and permanently changed their vocal chords. Others speak about their male pattern baldness, excess facial and body hair, mastectomies and hysterectomies that they now bitterly regret.
One MTF detransitioner speaks about his hatred for the breast growth, and immune and mental health problems that he now has because of cross sex synthetic female hormones.

These people are up front and honest about the fact that their bodies have been permanently changed or disfigured, and in one persons words "ruined" by transitioning.

Suggestions and Barley must be FURIOUS about the demonisation of lesbians (as highlighted on the “lesbians do it too” thread”)
I’m sure they’re all over that thread with their anger, sticking up for another letter of the LGBT acronym.

*21barleybadminton

Linguini

Copyright violation is the real issue here, not mutilating children. Got it.

You know the detransitioners you claim to care about so much have pretty much unanimously asked gender critical activists not to talk about mutiliated bodies. It is deeply offensive.*

I don't think that's true at all, Barley.

Detransitioners want to tell their story. What has been done to them is a massive and important part of that story.

Detransitioners want to raise awareness of the harms that have been done to them. The prominent ones talk about the surgery and effects of hormones as a way of informing others because obviously the doctors and therapists pedalling this aren't going to.

Why are you now lying to stop discussion of the most important and vital element of this whole debate?

Actually barley I think you were confused....

Trans women and trans men do not like people referring to the surgeries they have had in a negative way because that is offensive. I can absolutely understand and sympathise with that.

But also, I think there is a lot of benefit in analysing what the true physical cost of transition is going to be for these individuals, as even when completely happy with transition, it does seem to be a process that constantly needs revisions, treatments, and will involve lifelong medical care. It should not be the first port of call for someone presenting with gender dysphoria but rather, absolutely the final stage of treatment when all other options are explored.