Why isn't The Sun all over this?

[blueirises]

I've been a lurker here for quite a while, but I may have missed something. I just wonder why The Sun, with its history of "exposing" "Looney left" policies, doesn't seem to be covering the mess that Labour, the Lib Dems and the Greens are making of self-ID and other anti-women ideas. Are they hanging fire until closer to a general election, or do they really not think their readership want to know about the possibility of men getting changed or whatever next to their wives, daughters, mothers etc?

But all the places barley hangs out adorned with Flags are filled with people who agree with the Flags, and would excommunicate anyone who questioned the Rightness of the Flags.

The problem with echo chamber living. It might feel all lovely and comfortable at the time. But it makes the realities of the real world even more of a shock. I guess jjbarleys friends are still learning this.

23:07barleybadminton
Perhaps, but I'd be surprised if your part of the LGBT community

You didn't read my post properly, did you?

I work with trans children and adults and have transgender people in my family.

Because it's not something Sun readers particularly care about presumably. It's a middle class bubble issue, you hardly ever hear it discussed outside of those circles.

LMAO I've never met a Genderist who is working class. This certainly comes up amongst working class people.

Most people barely ever even see a trans woman, it's not impacting on their lives at all

It's probably true that those us with trans friends/family are more common on here because we see how Genderism harms them too but anyone in education and children's social care is dealing with these issues.

I love the way that barley feels able to dismiss the concerns of silly middle-class mummies.

@ Barleybadminton

Actually in the past couple of years I have been having more conversations with friends/colleagues about trans issues, probably becuase of the increased media profile. Interestingly, no one I have spoken with thinks TWAW/TMAM.

Most people barely ever even see a trans woman, it's not impacting on their lives at all

There's plenty of males identifying as women where I live. I guess that's what happens when the numbers of trans people swell from 5000 to in excess of half a million, (following the lure of self ID). They start to become far more noticeable. Not just a tiny number anymore is it. And it certainly does impact on my life, and my daughter's, when those people are using women's spaces.

At least 4 years have been discussing with friends, however, they are all on the middle class spectrum. The agreement seems to be that most people consider anyone who is trans to be transsexual and public at large are fine with that. They are not fine with much else, you only have to look at the comments in mainstream media to get the idea of the ration. I always take the view that each person knows 10 people and that's how information gets passed around. Lots of people don't read newspapers but will tune in once they become interested.

No quick rush on this one until the balance is tipped and the things that are doing this are transitioning of young people, sport and single sex facilities.

My worry is that we will become as divided as the US.

It was actually the Conservatives that brought the reform of the GRA to the Commons.

True, but the GRA itself was a Labour creation, quietly slipped through parliament in 2004 when everyone’s eyes were on the invasion of Iraq.

Do you mean the meeting held in 2019 before Kishwer Falkner was appointed? Not really relevant to the current situation.

And EHRC were talking to FPFW in 2018 before Kishwer Falkner was appointed, your point is?

The EHRC have a duty to talk to any and all groups concerned with one or more of the 9 protected characteristics in the EQA, it's called impartiality and balance. One protected characteristic does not override all others despite TRAs determination that it should, that the protected characteristic they promote should be placed on a pedestal with all others subordinate to it.

@Rheopecticfluid

But all the places barley hangs out adorned with Flags are filled with people who agree with the Flags, and would excommunicate anyone who questioned the Rightness of the Flags.

The problem with echo chamber living. It might feel all lovely and comfortable at the time. But it makes the realities of the real world even more of a shock. I guess jjbarleys friends are still learning this.

Oh the irony. Around 2 million people marched against the Iraq war and a million against the fox hunting ban. Hundreds of thousands of people marched against austerity, repeatedly, millions went on strike, dozens of buildings were occupied, tens of thousands have taken to the streets with XR, hundreds have been arrested, many have gone to jail.

That's what political movements with a large support base look like. This is just a top down middle class bubble, largely directed by right wing men who couldn't care less about the issues really but are enjoying seeing the conflict on the left and within feminism.

Even if every gender critical activist somehow did manage to drag themselves out onto the streets the crowd would still be dwarfed by contemporary trans inclusive feminist protests or the annual trans pride marches which I expect will be huge this year.

Mass movements with a lot of support don't need to retweet the same thing hundreds of times in a shabby attempt to make the movement look bigger than it is, they don't have people terrified to speak out because they might get in trouble with HR, they have people willing to sacrifice their livelihoods and freedom.

This is a middle class whinge that most people will forget about once the next middle class whinge comes along and it's only achieved the prominence it has is because of the huge privilege of some of it's supporters. And even that is fading, it looks like the New Statesman has 'fallen' and even Private Eye is on the attack. The gender critical movement is hemorrhaging support and every twitter pile on is only creating more enemies and turning people away from a movement that increasingly behaves in very unpleasant ways.

And it's won nothing solid. No victories at all. Trans rights are progressing at pace all over the world. A few bumps in the road in the UK will not change that.

And how could there ever be any problems caused by the Flags? No-one ever mentions the problems in the Bar of Flags. And that's where all the right-thinking people hang out. So it can only be Bad People who oppose the Flags making up the problems.

(There is a reason this sort of regime is very unstable and collapses extremely fast, you know, despite seeming all-powerful for a while - it's all surface agreement while the resistance builds and foundations rot. Even if it had good intentions, errors can never be corrected, so bad actors take advantage, and it inevitably faceplants. The only variable is how many people get harmed before it does).

This is ahistorical nonsense, the St George's Cross has been in use for over 700 years.

But more importantly it reveals a deep misunderstanding of why these flags are used. Yes, it is a statment of solidarity, but much more importantly it is an indication that this is a place of safety. When a venue hangs the rainbow flag it is saying you won't be harassed for your sexuality or gender presentation here, you won't be beaten up if you show affection for your partner, you are welcome here and those who would do harm to you are not. That's why it's such an important and loved symbol for many LGBT people and that's why people are so furious that a bunch of straight people are attacking it and claiming it is propaganda. It is not, it is a symbol of safety and protection from homophobia and transphobia, and one needed more than ever given recent events.

This is ahistorical nonsense, the St George's Cross has been in use for over 700 years

such desperation.

When a venue hangs the rainbow flag it is saying you won't be harassed for your sexuality

unless you're a lesbian (OG homosexual female edition.)

That's what political movements with a large support base look like.

@barleybadminton

Genuine question then: why are you here? If you are so sure that self ID enjoys popular support and it's the type of simple issue you can just march or protest about rather than have a nuanced discussion, then why bother?

If you really think everyone at pride marches and everyone who is gay or trans all think the same as you then why spend time arguing with the few stooges of a right wing conspiracy?

@Rhannion

Perhaps barley and everyone else should have a wee look over on the Scotsnet board at the thread Do Women in Scotland know how bad things have got. Can I draw your attention in particular to the article referenced written in Wings over Scotland blog. It’s about the safety, privacy and dignity of people with disabilities.

wingsoverscotland.com/the-silence-of-the-sacrificial-lambs/

Even if every gender critical activist somehow did manage to drag themselves out onto the streets the crowd would still be dwarfed by contemporary trans inclusive feminist protests or the annual trans pride marches which I expect will be huge this year

We don't need to take to the streets darling. Ensuring the law is applied as it should be is the most effective way forward. As no doubt you have started to notice. You go and shout on the streets. Enjoy. Whilst women are doing the real work in the back ground.

Giving a shit about the safety of women and girls is now a "middle class whinge".

How many pages did the latest thread on AIBU get to before it was moved to the Naughty Corner? There were an awful lot of posters who had never heard of this board calling out the bollocks of TWAW and saying they're sick of it.

@donquixotedelamancha

That's what political movements with a large support base look like.

@barleybadminton

Genuine question then: why are you here? If you are so sure that self ID enjoys popular support and it's the type of simple issue you can just march or protest about rather than have a nuanced discussion, then why bother?

If you really think everyone at pride marches and everyone who is gay or trans all think the same as you then why spend time arguing with the few stooges of a right wing conspiracy?

Because what the gender critical movement is managing to do is harm individuals and make people feel frightened. And as I've said there may be bumps in the road in the UK but the trajectory is clear. The Tories thought they'd won when they introduced Section 28 and look what happened.

But more importantly, gender critical activism is bolstering the far right at a time when they are on the rise - and they can put numbers on the streets and they do have people prepared to make sacrifices. In fact this is the only possible way the gender critical movement can win, with attacks on trans rights as part of a reactionary package which also includes attacks on women, LGB people and people of colour. That's what's happening in some US states and European countries, and that is a danger, because if a government emerges that seeks to really roll back the gains trans people have won it will not be made up of gender critical feminists and the outlook for all marginalised groups will be bleak.

Giving a shit about the safety of women and girls is now a "middle class whinge".

I know. How dare women want their sex segregated spaces to be free of penis. How terribly unreasonable and middle class.

Because what the gender critical movement is managing to do is harm individuals and make people feel frightened

Penis in women's spaces makes women and girls frightened. Do you care about that? Or is your penis more important than the safety of women and girls?

Ensuring the law is applied as it should be is the most effective way forward. As no doubt you have started to notice.

Yes AEA vs EHRC, Bell vs Tavistock and the recent prison case have probably done more to bolster trans rights than anything the dreaded TRAs have achieved over the last few years. Keep it up!

There were an awful lot of posters who had never heard of this board calling out the bollocks of TWAW and saying they're sick of it.

Comments on articles about trans issues usually say the same. TRAs have overreached massively. Most people are live and let live as long as no one is bothering them. However, being asked to deny objective facts and being told what to think realy pisses people off and they have had enough.

I find it odd that @barleybadminton is saying this doesn’t have a lot of support with the general public when there is a self-identifying as cats thread where everyone is laughing their heads off (well until one poster said that her DS2 was indoctrinated with it at an assembly at school). That’s where this ridiculous situation gets us and people are waking up now and are sick of it. And I would say it is the working classes laughing harder and thinking it ridiculous. It’s gender ideology which is an indulgent middle class thing.

Back to the same old, women who don't want penis in their space are far right.

No mate. Not at all. The more the public see what's going on the more pushback you will have. As you have started to notice.

Because women, and the men who actually care about women, do not want men in women's spaces. They don't want men in their daughters spaces.

That's not far right. That's basic common sense.

Get out of your chamber and read the room.

It’s gender ideology which is an indulgent middle class thing

One hundred percent this.

Because what the gender critical movement is managing to do is harm individuals and make people feel frightened.
What's frightening is the thousands of children demanding to change their sex because they've been gaslit into believing their uncomfortable pubertal bodies can be fixed with drugs and surgery.
What's frightening is knowing that the increasing numbers of male sex offenders who self identify as women will exit from their prison sentences straight into the mixed sex spaces that barley and barley's mates are enabling
What's sad is seeing women's spaces being colonised by males.
What's sad is seeing women's sporting opportunities being handed over to men
What's terrifying is seeing otherwise good politicians parrot delusional phrases like men can magically become women, never say only women have cervixes, let's put male rapists in prison with vulnerable women.

The reason barley is here is because this is a place where women speak the truth - sometimes an uncomfortable, difficult, challenging truth. And people like barley / jj/ etc are desperate to shut women up.