Reading recommendations: Ray Blanchard's Reasesrch

[Femisaurus]

I'm currently reading Trans and have Material Girls in my tbr pile.

I found the chapter on Blanchard and Bailey (around autogynephilia) really interesting and I understand they got a lot of abuse for it. What I'd like to do is understand the opinions of those who oppose Blanchard's theories. I know this may not be something that will go down well in FWR but whilst I'm most definitely GC I feel a need to understand the counter arguments (and I'm intrigued by them). I feel having balanced information is key to being able to speak confidently on a subject.

So, are there any books that cover this subject or the "other side" of the debate?

I have of course looked on Amazon but can see some reviews warning of incorrect stats. Whilst I want to understand the other side, I also want to make sure what I'm reading is factual.

Also any GC book recommendations would be most welcome.

Following because I agree It’s hard to tell if Blanchard is a bit nutty or not without going to do lots and lots of research and get a much deeper understanding of the psychological theories.

I think the best reading material on autogynophelia is the start of Anne Lawrance's book Men Trapped in Men's Bodies. I don't think you don't need to read the whole book, she summarises the science early on - I can't remember exactly, but it was the first chapter or so. Lawrance is an autogynophelic transsexual herself.

The book is here as a pdf: www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&ved=2ahUKEwiAio20rdb1AhVCkFwKHa8MBcIQFnoECAYQAQ&url=https%3A%2F%2Fsurveyanon.files.wordpress.com%2F2017%2F07%2Fmen-trapped-in-mens-bodies_book.pdf&usg=AOvVaw0ZLlREbveO5VqBwoOe6V01

On the other side this paper by Julia Serano - journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/0038026120934690 pretty much summarises the anti Blanchard arguments I think. I personally didn't find it remotely convincing - it reads to me like the work by climate sceptics who say that global warming isn't caused by anthropogenic CO2 but don't have any explanation of what it was caused by, they just say "it's natural", which isn't an explanation. Saying "transwomen feel they are the opposite sex because they have an opposite sex gender identity" is just saying "transwomen feel they are the opposite sex because they feel that they are the opposite sex".

I found Serano's other arguments - like that many AGPs experience the desire to be girls at a young age before they have sexual fantasies, equally unconvincing. Gay people also often report that they had crushes on other boys from an early age, before it was clearly sexual. And the claim that there were no controls in Blanchard's research is ignoring the fact that it is the HSTS that are the controls. They make better controls than women because they differ in only one variable.

The other main critique was Moser (mentioned by Serano) who gave a questionnaire to some actual women and claimed from that that a lot of women are also aroused by contemplating themselves as women, so this is just female sexuality and transwomen have it because they are really females inside. I don't find this very convincing either - for many reasons, one is that I don't believe in souls, so what does it mean to say that transwomen are really females inside, and another is - sure, women are likely to be female in their fantasies, but that isn't the same as it being the central PART of the fantasy. I've never heard of a female saying that she is aroused just by thinking of her own body, without it being in the context of someone touching it etc.

Maybe not quite what you asked for, but this interview with Ray Blanchard is very good. I love this podcast, Julian Vigo has an amazingly calm and soothing voice and there are some brilliant episodes.

It is the Savage mind podcast.

www.podbean.com/ea/dir-e5apw-d7bbb94

Ugh I tried to give you a link but it didn’t work. Short version of comment: as well as other sources mentioned previously, Contrapoints argued against AGP in a video.

Primary argument seems to be that some female sexuality contains a component of self-objectification therefore AGP is no different from female sexuality. (If you are wondering if that’s true, reading the unfiltered thoughts of TW on Reddit etc. is helpful.)

I know this may not be something that will go down well in FWR but whilst I'm most definitely GC I feel a need to understand the counter arguments (and I'm intrigued by them

Despite the prolific evidence from one end of the Internet to the other, AGP has been hotly denied. Altho that is happening less and less to be honest. Maybe due to so many men being entirely up front about it and also the growing number of transwidows publicising their experiences.

I've personally never seen a single argument to counter it (even 'women have it too' doesn't do that).

So I'd be genuinely interested to read the results of your research.

I don’t think the op says she has lots of counter research to hand, she just wanted more info. I think that’s reasonable. Covid has shone a floodlight on pseudo research and fake science and academics being completely incapable of formulating a rational theory and tbh Blanchard gives off a bit of this impression. I haven’t done my research, and don’t feel enormously qualified to either on this front without significant time and effort I don’t have right now. It’s a helpful response from another lass and will look at those.

For a historical perspective, have a look at the twitter threads linked to here about a book about transvestites written in 1910:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4462865-Magnus-Hirschfeld

What is described is pure AGP.

I agree timeisnotaline, I just don't think there is much to counter the argument.

From memory, Blanchard studied both HTST and AGP men for about 30 years. Although none of it was through a feminist lens, or with women in mind, it has to be said! Cross dressing and transvestism are incredibly common paraphilias, but I think it was he who coined the phrase autogynephilia for when it is taken further.

As others have said, if there was a decent counter argument, I think we'd have heard it. So I'm interested to know if any exist.

@Datun that's exactly what my question is, is there a decent counter argument?

I probably didn't word it well in my OP.

Blanchard's theories made total sense to me but I'm not a transwoman and I know that many people very much disagree with Blanchard. I, perhaps naively, thought that someone who disagreed with AGP would have a solid argument as to why and I was interested to hear it. Particularly as the objections were so strong that Lawrence, Bailey and Blanchard received some quite vile abuse.

Thank you @AnotherLass, I'll check those out

From what I remember, Femisaurus, when I first read about it seven or eight years ago, men with AGP were historically denied a diagnosis of gender dysphoria, and therefore treatment in the shape of hormones, etc.

The gatekeeping was something which was acknowledged because the difference in HSTS and AGP was recognised. Health professionals weren't about to start prescribing for what they deemed a fetish.

However that started to change when Stonewall got on board, and the denial of AGP's existence began to proliferate.

I think what I'm trying to say is there is no counter argument to it, because it's not something that one can actually deny. It's not something that can be argued for or against in any kind of countering context.

Maybe minimised or denied in the same way reality gets denied, but not actually countered, iyswim.

@Datun yes, it said in Trans about the gatekeeping and so many men saying they'd always felt like a woman when actually that probably wasn't the case

[quote 3wisepigeons]@Datun yes, it said in Trans about the gatekeeping and so many men saying they'd always felt like a woman when actually that probably wasn't the case[/quote]
I can remember reading quite a few narratives at that time of men who were offering tips and advice on how to convince your doctor that you have gender dysphoria, and weren't AGP.

That all seems to have gone by the wayside, which has led to us to the situation where you are what you say you are, no matter what the evidence.

@Datun

From what I remember, Femisaurus, when I first read about it seven or eight years ago, men with AGP were historically denied a diagnosis of gender dysphoria, and therefore treatment in the shape of hormones, etc.

The gatekeeping was something which was acknowledged because the difference in HSTS and AGP was recognised. Health professionals weren't about to start prescribing for what they deemed a fetish.

However that started to change when Stonewall got on board, and the denial of AGP's existence began to proliferate.

I think what I'm trying to say is there is no counter argument to it, because it's not something that one can actually deny. It's not something that can be argued for or against in any kind of countering context.

Maybe minimised or denied in the same way reality gets denied, but not actually countered, iyswim.

This is completely untrue. Neither HSTS or AGP have ever been formally recognised as medical diagnoses, and as such they are not and never have been used by the NHS to diagnose or categorise trans women. People question whether AGP exists because the only evidence for it is Blanchard's flawed and biased study, the results of which have never been accepted or widely used by the broader medical community in diagnosing gender dysphoria. It is extremely misleading of particular Mumsnetters to use the term as though it is established and accepted medical terminology with an uncontroversial definition - it isn't and hasn't ever been.

@SevenWaystoLeave I think this was in the US not the UK? I can't remember, I'd have to dig the book out

The theory of AGP that Blanchard created explains a lot to me, as I could never understand why heterosexual men wanted to become women, particularly from men who weren't effeminate at all. His research came from analysing and studying people.

It's not surprising that the people who most regret sex change surgery are the AGP men. I think if more men knew about this they probably wouldn't go down this path. Not acknowledging it is a safeguarding issue.

People don't like the research, and as such try to find issues with it, usually I've seen people say "well I know this person and they prove his theory wrong", well he interviewed 1000s, so has more evidence.

The trouble with AGP is that it goes against the established idea by TRAs that transitioning is always the correct choice.

[quote Femisaurus]@Datun that's exactly what my question is, is there a decent counter argument?

I probably didn't word it well in my OP.

Blanchard's theories made total sense to me but I'm not a transwoman and I know that many people very much disagree with Blanchard. I, perhaps naively, thought that someone who disagreed with AGP would have a solid argument as to why and I was interested to hear it. Particularly as the objections were so strong that Lawrence, Bailey and Blanchard received some quite vile abuse.[/quote]
It's simplistic reactionary nonsense and the strict dvivisions Blanchard claimed have not been found in later peer reviewed research. It's unfalsifiable, and incomplete and has at it's heart assumptions that are completely out of date with mdern understanding - so trans women attracted to men are 'extreme homosexuals' who have a natural feminine essence, bisexual trans women don't exist and claims the reason autogynephilia often disappear post transition is because trans people pair bind with themselves and like long term couple no longer want any sexual desire. Complete hokum, barely anone in the field gives it any time of day anymore but it does posit that trans women are all either mentally ill perverts or poor confused gays so it has beome popular in gender critical circles as a way to attack trans people.

Oh dear lord. You don't need peer reviewed research to look at AGP men from one end of the Internet to the other Barley!

Neither did I claim that Blanchard's terminology constituted a diagnosis SevenWaystoLeave.

I'm merely pointing out the reasons why certain people want to minimise or deny AGP.

I find it ironic that many trans activists just say that AGP is a complete nonsensical theory (and ignore what's out there, particularly with examples of the most famous transwomen) yet push their own theories as fact (like the genderbread person) that are easily debunked.

I find it worrying that these activists seem intent on pushing AGP men down the transition route. I know that the gender identity clinics used to filter them out and that's why we hear of people memorising a script to circumvent this process. The Conversion Therapy bill will also take this safeguarding measure away.

AGP would also explain why some men who transition aren't that fussed about pass-ability as it's really the emperor's new clothes. No man wants to admit that it was his sexual desires that led him down that path.

The theory of AGP basically says that transitioning is for some people, but for others (heterosexual men) it is not a solution. But for TRAs it is all or nothing.

There was a really interesting suggestion on one of the trans widows threads, that AGP is like an addiction. I don't think that idea stands a chance of being investigated in the current climate.

@barleybadminton do you have any examples of the later peer reviewed research that I can look up?

Oh dear lord. You don't need peer reviewed research to look at AGP men from one end of the Internet to the other Barley!

Quite. That genie is not going back in the bottle. As more and more men decide they are women, AGP is also more and more blatantly flaunted. I expect the attempts at denying it will soon die out.

When too many men claim they have it, what are you going to say? Claim they were all brainwashed by nasty feminist witches?

Unfortunately I don’t think this will be an improvement. The first voices have started calling for normalising AGP, to try to fool us all that it is harmless. It is not. It is an extreme objectification of womanhood, and thereby women.

Furthermore, AGP men, by definition, get off on pretending to be women, e.g by using women’s spaces and demanding others call them she/her/Female name, thus enrolling others, especially women and girls, in their fetish without our consent.

Normalising living out AGP on a daily basis normalises the idea of men’s sexual desires taking priority over women’s consent, privacy and dignity, which is anything but harmless.

I honestly think this is the one to be alert to, and keep pushing back against whenever it rears its ugly head.