Reading recommendations: Ray Blanchard's Reasesrch

[Femisaurus]

I'm currently reading Trans and have Material Girls in my tbr pile.

I found the chapter on Blanchard and Bailey (around autogynephilia) really interesting and I understand they got a lot of abuse for it. What I'd like to do is understand the opinions of those who oppose Blanchard's theories. I know this may not be something that will go down well in FWR but whilst I'm most definitely GC I feel a need to understand the counter arguments (and I'm intrigued by them). I feel having balanced information is key to being able to speak confidently on a subject.

So, are there any books that cover this subject or the "other side" of the debate?

I have of course looked on Amazon but can see some reviews warning of incorrect stats. Whilst I want to understand the other side, I also want to make sure what I'm reading is factual.

Also any GC book recommendations would be most welcome.

The theory of AGP basically says that transitioning is for some people, but for others (heterosexual men) it is not a solution. But for TRAs it is all or nothing.

This is categorically untrue. Blanchard's theory absolutely supports transition, up to and including genital surgery. He claims that autogynephilia is an inherent sexual orientation which cannot be changed and for which transition is the most humane and clinically effective solution. What he can't explain is why autogynephilia often disappears or significantly reduces post transition (even social transition) which is at odds with the claim it is either an orientation or a paraphilia. This is what led to Anne Lawrence's wild speculation about trans people 'pair bonding' with themselves post transition and like an old married couple no longer possessing sexual desire.

@Femisaurus

I haven't read what Joyce says but I think it's important to note that the way autogynephilia is presented by many gender critical sources is often wildly at odds with Blanchard's theory and has largely been made up off the cuff with no punlished evidence behind it and with a view to maximising the stigma trans women face. So you'll often hear GC people claim someone like Monroe Bergdorf, who is exclusively attracted to men, is an autogynephile which is literally impossible under Blanchard's theory. Autogynephila means attarction to oneself as a woman, Blanchard claim trans women have a target location error and so instead of fancying other women they fancy themselves imagined as women basically - if they are not attracted to women they can't be autogynephiles, but extreme homosexuals with a naturally feminine essence - because the theory links homosexuality in men to femininity (I don't think Blanchard ever went to Trade lol).

Oh dear lord. You don't need peer reviewed research to look at AGP men from one end of the Internet to the other Barley!

The second mistake often made is people linking sexually motivated cross dressing and other gender related fetishes - which are quite common in men who identify a men and have no desire to change that (and more than a few women) - with autogynephilia as a comprehensive theory of transsexuality. Do some men get off on imagining themselves as women orcross dressing - absolutely. Do some trans women experience arousal at the thought of themselves as women - yes, it is not uncommon and hardly surprising - you would expect someone who feels their body is wrong and they should be the other sex to have a sexuality which reflects that. Does this explain the phenomena of transsexuality in humans - well no, not at all because many trans people don't experience autogynephilia and of those that do it often goes away or diminishes once they transition.

[quote Femisaurus]@barleybadminton do you have any examples of the later peer reviewed research that I can look up?[/quote]
Julie Serano's work is probably the best and really put an end to the theory in the related diciplines - and it certainly deserves better than the glib dismissal upthread. One of her published papers is here: www.juliaserano.com/av/Serano-CaseAgainstAutogynephilia.pdf

There hasn't been a huge amount of work done on it because in the scienific communities there's only about half a dozen proponents of the theory and it is not particularly paid much heed to. However Moser's work is here: www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/00918369.2010.486241

Whereas this is his research on autogynephilia in those born biologically female female: pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/19591032/

Later work has shown that Blacnhard's strict correlation upon which the theory depends have not been reproduced and that transgender sexuality is way more complex then he assumes:

"In contrast to Blanchard's theory, however, those transsexuals classified as autogynephilic scored higher on average on Sexual Attraction to Males than those classified as non-autogynephilic, and no transsexuals classified as autogynephilic reported asexuality."

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/18299976/

There hasn't been a huge amount of work done on it because in the scienific communities there's only about half a dozen proponents of the theory and it is not particularly paid much heed to.

My google scholar search for articles mentioning 'autogynephilia' and 'Blanchard' returned 831 results:
scholar.google.co.uk/scholar?q=autogynephilia+blanchard&hl=en&as_sdt=0%2C5&as_vis=1&as_ylo=&as_yhi=

There's quite a lot there to read through for something that hasn't had a huge amount of work done on it.

Do some trans women experience arousal at the thought of themselves as women - yes, it is not uncommon and hardly surprising - you would expect someone who feels their body is wrong and they should be the other sex to have a sexuality which reflects that.

It's arousal at the thought of themselves as a woman, often coined gender euphoria. And often as a woman in a sexually subservient context. Reams of stuff about how these men fetishise women's oppression.

It is not 'having the sexuality' of a woman. Which is impossible unless you are a woman.

Still, it's good to know there are at least 800 or 900 scholarly articles which, hopefully, the OP can access.

Reams of stuff about how these men fetishise women's oppression.

Yes and that has nothing to do with Blanchard's theory of autogynephila as I'm sure you understand if you have read the literature. Blanchard claims trans women have a target location error, it has nothing to do with fetishising women's oppression.

And there aren't 800/900 scholarly articles, there are a few dozen all written by the same cluster of people and passing references to their theories in other papers, usually critical of it.

And there aren't 800/900 scholarly articles, there are a few dozen all written by the same cluster of people

Did you click on my google scholar link? There were over 800 results. But if you look at any specialist area of research you'll find lots of papers by a limited number of people who are specialists in that area, so I don't know why you find that surprising in this case.

@OldCrone

And there aren't 800/900 scholarly articles, there are a few dozen all written by the same cluster of people

Did you click on my google scholar link? There were over 800 results. But if you look at any specialist area of research you'll find lots of papers by a limited number of people who are specialists in that area, so I don't know why you find that surprising in this case.

There are just over 1000 references to autogynephilia in total on google scholar. In contrast there are 25,000 references to "gender dysphoria", 55,000 references to transsexual and 443,000 references to transgender. Just as an example of how influential the theory has been in the field.

Just as an example of how influential the theory has been in the field.

Are you saying it doesn't exist? This is from one of your links:

I conclude that although autogynephilia exists, the theory is flawed.

Blanchard's Autogynephilia Theory: A Critique - Charles Moser

@OldCrone

Just as an example of how influential the theory has been in the field.

Are you saying it doesn't exist? This is from one of your links:

I conclude that although autogynephilia exists, the theory is flawed.

Blanchard's Autogynephilia Theory: A Critique - Charles Moser

Autogynephilia, as a description of a kink, exists, in that there are people born physically male who are turned on by the thought of being female. Autogynephilia theory as proposed by Blanchard as a comprehensive explanation for gender dysphoria/transsexuality however is false, or at least incomplete, poorly evidenced, unfalsifiable, inconsistent and reactionary and not accepted by the vast majority of researchers in the various related diciplines.

Autogynephilia theory as proposed by Blanchard as a comprehensive explanation for gender dysphoria/transsexuality however is false

He doesn't say it's a comprehensive explanation for gender dysphoria/transsexuality, but that it does describe some people who identify as transgender/transsexual.

I'm not sure why there is a desperation to deny the existence of AGP. I think acknowledging it would definitely help many people, as too many are sent down a road of transition that is clearly not for them.

I've seen a family torn apart by this, where their young adult heterosexual son decided to become a woman (even though he showed no feminine traits previously, he was a quiet geeky boy). The person in question even doubted the treatment, but felt they were too far down the path to go back. In the end he had all the surgery, but the family remains totally divided, it didn't make them any happier either. I wonder if diagnosis of AGP may have prevented this?

@OldCrone

Autogynephilia theory as proposed by Blanchard as a comprehensive explanation for gender dysphoria/transsexuality however is false

He doesn't say it's a comprehensive explanation for gender dysphoria/transsexuality, but that it does describe some people who identify as transgender/transsexual.

Yes he does, you clearly have not read it, he claims all trans women are either autogynephiles or extreme homosexuals and any who don't fit the model are lying - which is the reason why his theory is unfalsifiable and therefore falls at the first hurdle of legitimacy.

he claims all trans women are either autogynephiles or extreme homosexuals

I know that. Are you disputing that autogynephila exists or not?

@OldCrone

he claims all trans women are either autogynephiles or extreme homosexuals

I know that. Are you disputing that autogynephila exists or not?

I refer you to the answer just above this when you asked me that question a couple of posts ago.

I don't know what your problem is barley. You admit that autogynephilia exists and that this is the explanation for at least some of the heterosexual males who transition. So you agree with Blanchard that the explanation for the transition of at least some heterosexual males is autogynephilia.

What other explanations are there in your opinion for older heterosexual males who transition?

You admit that autogynephilia exists and that this is the explanation for at least some of the heterosexual males who transition. So you agree with Blanchard that the explanation for the transition of at least some heterosexual males is autogynephilia.

I have admitted no such thing. I agree with Julie Serano that autogynephilia, where it is present, is likely a symptom of a discordant gender identity rather than the cause.

What other explanations are there in your opinion for older heterosexual males who transition?

Because 20/30/40 years ago it was very difficult to live as a trans women and so many trans people stayed in the closet. Thankfully now things are more tolerant and the age at which trans women tend to transition is younger.

I have admitted no such thing.

You said:
Autogynephilia, as a description of a kink, exists, in that there are people born physically male who are turned on by the thought of being female.

Isn't this an admission that autogynephilia exists?

Because 20/30/40 years ago it was very difficult to live as a trans women and so many trans people stayed in the closet. Thankfully now things are more tolerant and the age at which trans women tend to transition is younger.

That's not answering my question. Why do heterosexual adult males transition?

The best way to research AGP is to read the accounts of the women who have been victims of it, rather than it's perpetrators and their facilitators.

www.transwidowsvoices.org/our-voices

I agree with Julie Serano that autogynephilia, where it is present, is likely a symptom of a discordant gender identity rather than the cause.

Wtf is a 'discordant gender identity'?

@OldCrone

I agree with Julie Serano that autogynephilia, where it is present, is likely a symptom of a discordant gender identity rather than the cause.

Wtf is a 'discordant gender identity'?

Oh sorry, is that a difficult word for you. It means a gender identity which is different to the physical sex recorded at birth.

What is a gender identity barley?

@OldCrone

What is a gender identity barley?

An inner sense of whether you are male, female, or neither, or a bit of both in some cases.

So many words, and so little sense to any of them.

Which words are you struggling with and I'll try and help you out?