Reading recommendations: Ray Blanchard's Reasesrch

[Femisaurus]

I'm currently reading Trans and have Material Girls in my tbr pile.

I found the chapter on Blanchard and Bailey (around autogynephilia) really interesting and I understand they got a lot of abuse for it. What I'd like to do is understand the opinions of those who oppose Blanchard's theories. I know this may not be something that will go down well in FWR but whilst I'm most definitely GC I feel a need to understand the counter arguments (and I'm intrigued by them). I feel having balanced information is key to being able to speak confidently on a subject.

So, are there any books that cover this subject or the "other side" of the debate?

I have of course looked on Amazon but can see some reviews warning of incorrect stats. Whilst I want to understand the other side, I also want to make sure what I'm reading is factual.

Also any GC book recommendations would be most welcome.

I think you made the mistake of describing it accurately while failing to also claim it doesn't exist.

Ah. Always amazed at the things people want to report.

Fot the vast majority it does though, so that's a good thing isn't it, assuming you want people to be happy?

It's not surprising that AGPs who transition are 'happy'. Although reading the transwidows voices, this is often short lived.

Neither is it surprising that women don't want to be compelled to refer to them as women.

@barleybadminton

If there were a few million do you think Rachel Donezal acting as chapter president for the NAACP would be all fine and dandy?

But there aren't are there? And neither is there a wealth of research and testimony that demonstrates how unhappy some people are due to their sense of self being different to their race. So it's not a very good comparison and I'm not sure how helpful it is to get drawn into highly implausible hypothetical situations.

Why does the fact that there are large numbers of men who get sexual kicks out of appropriating my oppression make it ok?

@VeryLongBeeeeep

People question whether AGP exists because the only evidence for it is Blanchard's flawed and biased study

If anyone genuinely thinks that the phenomenon of men becoming aroused by the image of themselves as women, specifically by the idea of themelves as submissive women, and by extension aroused by themselves wearing the trappings of hyper-femininity (lingerie and the like) doesn't exist, I invite you to spend some time, as I often have to do - more's the pity - for work-related reasons, on any x-rated site where individuals can upload their own content. These sites are overrun with men talking about and posting photos and videos of themselves in 'sissy mode', with very obvious evidence of just how aroused they are

Lots of people, both men and women, get turned on by being submissive and dressing up without it meaning they are transgender. Human sexuality seems to be heavily influenced by the society we live in, which unfortunately is a patriarchal one. So I guess the question is is it better for society, or more specifically feminism, to repress things that turn you on in the name of undermining the patriarchy, or to be able to enjoy them whilst recognising it is a fantasy that has been influenced by living under patriarchy. This is in part what the lesbian sex wars of the 80s were about and it still seems unresolved.

Why does the fact that there are large numbers of men who get sexual kicks out of appropriating my oppression make it ok?

Are you talking about fetish motivated cross dressers now or trans people who transition due to gender dysphoria?

@barleybadminton

How can someone have an inner sense of their sex which is different to their actual sex? You're not even trying to make sense now.

Well they just do. Human beings are complex and we haven't learnt everything about how brains work yet. But there are millions of people saying this all over the world. Unfortunately this also makes some people very cross and so they accuse them all of lying or being mentally ill.

Well they just do.

That's me convinced then!

There are billions of people all over the world who say that god exists.

A belief is neither a lie nor a mental illness. It does not make me 'very cross' that so many people believe in god, or that some people believe they have a gender identity. People are free to believe or disbelieve whatever they like - this is a human right that is protected in UK equality law.

I get very cross indeed when I am expected to act as if I believe something I don't, especially when it harms me.

@barleybadminton

Why does the fact that there are large numbers of men who get sexual kicks out of appropriating my oppression make it ok?

Are you talking about fetish motivated cross dressers now or trans people who transition due to gender dysphoria?

Which of these categories do late-transitioning AGP males fit into?

“Lots of people, both men and women, get turned on by being submissive and dressing up without it meaning they are transgender. Human sexuality seems to be heavily influenced by the society we live in, which unfortunately is a patriarchal one. So I guess the question is is it better for society, or more specifically feminism, to repress things that turn you on in the name of undermining the patriarchy, or to be able to enjoy them whilst recognising it is a fantasy that has been influenced by living under patriarchy. This is in part what the lesbian sex wars of the 80s were about and it still seems unresolved.”

Acting out fetishes and fantasies in the bedroom is very different from taking them into a women’s changing room, though.

@barleybadminton

Why does the fact that there are large numbers of men who get sexual kicks out of appropriating my oppression make it ok?

Are you talking about fetish motivated cross dressers now or trans people who transition due to gender dysphoria?

I’m not talking about people with gender dysphoria. You don’t have to have gender dysphoria to be transgender (according to Stonewall).

Which of these categories do late-transitioning AGP males fit into?

Well once again I've answered this. I agree with Julie Serano that autogynephilia, where it exists, is a symptom of rather than a cause of gender dysphoria so I don;t really accept the concept of people transitioning being AGP males. They are people with gender dysphoria, who may or may not experience arousal at the thought of themselves as a woman and who transition late because it was so difficult to live as a trans woman historically so they stayed in the closet. And as I've also said, thankfully trans women feel able to transition much younger now, which is something all those concerned about 'trans widows' should be celebrating because people not being able to express who they feel they are has knock on consequences for people other than themselves - much the same as when a lot of gays and lesbians got married to people of the opposite sex because they didn't feel able to ive as they really needed to.

Human sexuality seems to be heavily influenced by the society we live in

It's almost as if some things aren't innate, isn't it? Now class, can anyone think of some other things that aren't innate but that vary according to geography, time and culture?

Lots of people, both men and women, get turned on by being submissive and dressing up without it meaning they are transgender. Human sexuality seems to be heavily influenced by the society we live in, which unfortunately is a patriarchal one. So I guess the question is is it better for society, or more specifically feminism, to repress things that turn you on in the name of undermining the patriarchy, or to be able to enjoy them whilst recognising it is a fantasy that has been influenced by living under patriarchy.

Its long been recognised that the 'good of society' includes the right to consent or not, and that some acts are not suitable for public.

Do what you want in private. Pretend it is for the good of society and feminism if you like. All I can see is the same old projection.

@Thelnebriati

Lots of people, both men and women, get turned on by being submissive and dressing up without it meaning they are transgender. Human sexuality seems to be heavily influenced by the society we live in, which unfortunately is a patriarchal one. So I guess the question is is it better for society, or more specifically feminism, to repress things that turn you on in the name of undermining the patriarchy, or to be able to enjoy them whilst recognising it is a fantasy that has been influenced by living under patriarchy.

Its long been recognised that the 'good of society' includes the right to consent or not, and that some acts are not suitable for public.

Do what you want in private. Pretend it is for the good of society and feminism if you like. All I can see is the same old projection.

It's also long been recognised that people within reason have the right to dress and present themselves as they choose in public and the days where femininity in those born physically male could result in violence or arrest are thankfully largely behind us. It's a great shame some seem determined to bring such a culture back by falsely claiming anyone who dresses in a way which is not inline with their birth sex is a pervert or sexually motivated.

It's a great shame some seem determined to bring such a culture back by falsely claiming anyone who dresses in a way which is not inline with their birth sex is a pervert or sexually motivated.

Once again showing that you have no understanding of what this discussion is about.

the days where femininity in those born physically male could result in violence or arrest are thankfully largely behind us

Great! No need for them to carry on using female spaces then, if the violent days are behind us. I'm genuinely pleased to hear that feminine-presenting men are no longer at risk in male toilets, changing rooms etc, as no one here advocates violence against anyone simply for how they choose to dress or wear their hair.

@VeryLongBeeeeep

the days where femininity in those born physically male could result in violence or arrest are thankfully largely behind us

Great! No need for them to carry on using female spaces then, if the violent days are behind us. I'm genuinely pleased to hear that feminine-presenting men are no longer at risk in male toilets, changing rooms etc, as no one here advocates violence against anyone simply for how they choose to dress or wear their hair.

I said largely, unfortunately it does still happen and seems to be getting worse. The days when men sexually assault and harass trans women however are very much still with us sadly.

I thought you were talking about acting out a dominance and submission fetish, barleybadminton. Were you secretly talking in code or something?

@OldCrone

It's a great shame some seem determined to bring such a culture back by falsely claiming anyone who dresses in a way which is not inline with their birth sex is a pervert or sexually motivated.

Once again showing that you have no understanding of what this discussion is about.

I understand perfectly. You think that middle aged trans women are all AGP males inflicting their fetish on other people. I can't think of anything more likely to bring back a culture of violence towards trans women then repeatedly claiming they are sexual predators just for existing in public.

How can something be "largely behind us" and "getting worse" at the same time?

Answer: it can't. You just make it up as you go along, scrambling to backtrack when you realise you've let slip something that exposes the complete illogicality of this whole ideology.

How can something be "largely behind us" and "getting worse" at the same time?

Very easily. The days when those born physically male expressing femininity would almost certainly face violence or abuse in many social spheres such as out in town on a saturday night are largely behind us, however it is still a problem and one that seems to have got worse over the law few years. I don't really know how to express it in simpler terms. It was really bad, it got a lot better, now it looks like it might be getting bad again. Does that help?

I understand perfectly. You think that middle aged trans women are all AGP males inflicting their fetish on other people.

Not all. Some.

I can't think of anything more likely to bring back a culture of violence towards trans women then repeatedly claiming they are sexual predators just for existing in public.

Nobody has said that all transwomen are sexual predators. But it has been observed that sexual predators appear to be over-represented in the (male) trans population, since half of the males in prison who identify as transwomen are sex offenders.

Why do you think this is? Is it because a large proportion of transwomen are sex offenders or is it because some male prisoners are pretending to be transwomen?

Why do you think this is? Is it because a large proportion of transwomen are sex offenders or is it because some male prisoners are pretending to be transwomen?

Or perhaps it's because just like black men and lesbians along with many other marginalised groups trans people are over represented in prisons because of living in a society which is prejudiced towards them.

@barleybadminton

Why do you think this is? Is it because a large proportion of transwomen are sex offenders or is it because some male prisoners are pretending to be transwomen?

Or perhaps it's because just like black men and lesbians along with many other marginalised groups trans people are over represented in prisons because of living in a society which is prejudiced towards them.

You haven't answered my question.

Are transwomen more likely than other males to be sex offenders or are some male sex offenders in prison just pretending to be trans?

Are transwomen more likely than other males to be sex offenders or are some male sex offenders in prison just pretending to be trans?

I once again refer you to the answer to your question I gave in my post just before this one.