Reading recommendations: Ray Blanchard's Reasesrch

[Femisaurus]

I'm currently reading Trans and have Material Girls in my tbr pile.

I found the chapter on Blanchard and Bailey (around autogynephilia) really interesting and I understand they got a lot of abuse for it. What I'd like to do is understand the opinions of those who oppose Blanchard's theories. I know this may not be something that will go down well in FWR but whilst I'm most definitely GC I feel a need to understand the counter arguments (and I'm intrigued by them). I feel having balanced information is key to being able to speak confidently on a subject.

So, are there any books that cover this subject or the "other side" of the debate?

I have of course looked on Amazon but can see some reviews warning of incorrect stats. Whilst I want to understand the other side, I also want to make sure what I'm reading is factual.

Also any GC book recommendations would be most welcome.

@barleybadminton

So many words, and so little sense to any of them.

Which words are you struggling with and I'll try and help you out?

'Gender identity'. What is it?

I'm afraid I shall have to refer you once more to the answer I gave a couple of posts before this when you asked me that question the first time.

An inner sense of whether you are male, female, or neither, or a bit of both in some cases.

Sorry. Missed this reply.

What does this 'inner sense' feel like?

We all know whether we are male or female. Nobody is neither or both.

Knowing your sex is nothing to do with an 'inner sense', just an understanding of your biology.

@OldCrone

An inner sense of whether you are male, female, or neither, or a bit of both in some cases.

Sorry. Missed this reply.

What does this 'inner sense' feel like?

We all know whether we are male or female. Nobody is neither or both.

Knowing your sex is nothing to do with an 'inner sense', just an understanding of your biology.

Well some people do feel they have an inner sense of their sex, and sometimes people feel that is different to the sex recorded at their birth and this can cause considerable discomfort so they seek to transition towards that sex as much as is possible - whether by adopting the typical social presentation of that sex or undergoing medical treatment to change aspects of their body.

Unfortunately this makes some other people very cross and so they devote their lives to trying to stop them.

Well some people do feel they have an inner sense of their sex, and sometimes people feel that is different to the sex recorded at their birth and this can cause considerable discomfort so they seek to transition towards that sex as much as is possible - whether by adopting the typical social presentation of that sex or undergoing medical treatment to change aspects of their body.

How can someone have an inner sense of their sex which is different to their actual sex? You're not even trying to make sense now.

And by 'typical social presentation' I assume you're talking about stereotypes. You do realise this is a feminist forum, don't you?

Unfortunately this makes some other people very cross and so they devote their lives to trying to stop them.

Why are you here then? Why don't you go and argue with those people who are 'very cross'?

How can someone have an inner sense of their sex which is different to their actual sex? You're not even trying to make sense now.

Well they just do. Human beings are complex and we haven't learnt everything about how brains work yet. But there are millions of people saying this all over the world. Unfortunately this also makes some people very cross and so they accuse them all of lying or being mentally ill.

@barleybadminton

How can someone have an inner sense of their sex which is different to their actual sex? You're not even trying to make sense now.

Well they just do. Human beings are complex and we haven't learnt everything about how brains work yet. But there are millions of people saying this all over the world. Unfortunately this also makes some people very cross and so they accuse them all of lying or being mentally ill.

Do you also believe that people can also have a 'species identity', so they might identify as a dog or a horse for example? Or an 'age identity', so they might identify as much younger or older than their actual age?

These are just as valid as identifying as the opposite sex (which you have no experience of being), aren't they?

No man can have an 'inner sense' of being a woman, because he isn't one and never has been one.

Do you also believe that people can also have a 'species identity', so they might identify as a dog or a horse for example? Or an 'age identity', so they might identify as much younger or older than their actual age?

I'm not aware of millions of dogs feeling like they should be horses though I grant it might be a difficult thing for them to communicate. I think it's quite possible that sex is experienced in different ways to age and what species you are. That would explain the millions of people who feel like they would be much happier and more comfortable if they were the opposite sex to the one recorded at birth.

These are just as valid as identifying as the opposite sex (which you have no experience of being), aren't they?

If a dog could somehow tell me it would be much happier if it was a horse I'd think that was perfectly valid and do what I could to help, such as occassionally saying giddy up and buying it a bridle if it wanted.

“If a dog could somehow tell me it would be much happier if it was a horse I'd think that was perfectly valid and do what I could to help, such as occassionally saying giddy up and buying it a bridle if it wanted.”

Right. And if a white person said they felt they would be much happier as a black person?

Oh barley.

You said I haven't read what Joyce says but I think it's important to note that the way autogynephilia is presented by many gender critical sources is often wildly at odds with Blanchard's theory and has largely been made up off the cuff with no punlished evidence behind it

No evidence and all made up - bad.

In the same thread as

"How can someone have an inner sense of their sex which is different to their actual sex? You're not even trying to make sense now."

Well they just do. Human beings are complex and we haven't learnt everything about how brains work yet. But there are millions of people saying this all over the world.

No evidence and all made up - good!

And

he claims all trans women are either autogynephiles or extreme homosexuals and any who don't fit the model are lying - which is the reason why his theory is unfalsifiable and therefore falls at the first hurdle of legitimacy.

No evidence, all made up - bad.

You do this a lot. You will contradict yourself almost in the same post, never on the same thread.

I agree, you're not even trying to make sense!

Does anyone know why I was deleted? I can't remember what I said. Wasn't just that Barley makes no sense?

@TheMarzipanDildo

“If a dog could somehow tell me it would be much happier if it was a horse I'd think that was perfectly valid and do what I could to help, such as occassionally saying giddy up and buying it a bridle if it wanted.”

Right. And if a white person said they felt they would be much happier as a black person?

Well unlike dogs white people can talk and there don't appear to be millions of white people saying they would be much happier and more comfortable if they were black so it's clearly very different to how people experience sex.

“Well unlike dogs white people can talk and there don't appear to be millions of white people saying they would be much happier and more comfortable if they were black so it's clearly very different to how people experience sex.“

There are some white people who like to think they are black though. If there were a few million do you think Rachel Donezal acting as chapter president for the NAACP would be all fine and dandy?

@Datun

Does anyone know why I was deleted? I can't remember what I said. Wasn't just that Barley makes no sense?

I believe you quoted barley and then commented the phrase that barley quoted in bold But maybe not as barley wasn't deleted ??

Yes, that's what I thought Goatsaregreat. Completely innocuous, I thought. Still, any threats about AGP get forensically monitored.

barleybadminton:
Well some people do feel they have an inner sense of their sex, and sometimes people feel that is different to the sex recorded at their birth

Or, in other words, some people feel they are a different sex from that which they actually are.

... and this can cause considerable discomfort so they seek to transition towards that sex as much as is possible

-- Which is possibly the saddest aspect of the whole shenanigans because of course any 'transition' in that way can be at best cosmetic; human beings cannot change sex.

- whether by adopting the typical social presentation of that sex or undergoing medical treatment to change aspects of their body. Indeed.

... accuse them all of lying or being mentally ill. Maybe this would be too harsh, indeed. Perhaps not lying. But certainly anyone who thinks or 'feels' their sex is other than it actually is, is mistaken.

It would seem kinder to quote to those who feel they are a sex which they are not Oliver Cromwell's injunction to the Kirk: 'In the bowels of Christ, think it possible that you may be mistaken', rather than encouraging the falsehood they feel to be true. No?

If there were a few million do you think Rachel Donezal acting as chapter president for the NAACP would be all fine and dandy?

But there aren't are there? And neither is there a wealth of research and testimony that demonstrates how unhappy some people are due to their sense of self being different to their race. So it's not a very good comparison and I'm not sure how helpful it is to get drawn into highly implausible hypothetical situations.

Which is possibly the saddest aspect of the whole shenanigans because of course any 'transition' in that way can be at best cosmetic; human beings cannot change sex.

Sad for you perhaps, but actually for a lot of those people transition makes them happy. I'm sorry that makes you feel sad.

for a lot of those people transition makes them happy.

And for a lot of them it doesn't. Because they eventually realise that their unhappiness was due to something other than their sex.

People question whether AGP exists because the only evidence for it is Blanchard's flawed and biased study

If anyone genuinely thinks that the phenomenon of men becoming aroused by the image of themselves as women, specifically by the idea of themelves as submissive women, and by extension aroused by themselves wearing the trappings of hyper-femininity (lingerie and the like) doesn't exist, I invite you to spend some time, as I often have to do - more's the pity - for work-related reasons, on any x-rated site where individuals can upload their own content. These sites are overrun with men talking about and posting photos and videos of themselves in 'sissy mode', with very obvious evidence of just how aroused they are

@Datun

Does anyone know why I was deleted? I can't remember what I said. Wasn't just that Barley makes no sense?

I think you made the mistake of describing it accurately while failing to also claim it doesn't exist.

@OldCrone

for a lot of those people transition makes them happy.

And for a lot of them it doesn't. Because they eventually realise that their unhappiness was due to something other than their sex.

Fot the vast majority it does though, so that's a good thing isn't it, assuming you want people to be happy?

I think you made the mistake of describing it accurately while failing to also claim it doesn't exist.

I'd best start counting down how long my previous post survives for in that case...despite it being 100% factual.