Lia Thomas (again)

[Signalbox]

Reports that Lia Thomas has been exposing themselves to female team mates and that they have complained and been ignored on multiple occasions...

"While Lia covers herself with a towel sometimes, there’s a decent amount of nudity, the swimmer said. She and others have had a glimpse at her private parts."

"She stated that team members have raised their concern with the coach, trying to get Thomas ousted from the female locker room, but got nowhere."

"Multiple swimmers have raised it, multiple different times,' the UPenn swimmer said. 'But we were basically told that we could not ostracize Lia by not having her in the locker room and that there's nothing we can do about it, that we basically have to roll over and accept it, or we cannot use our own locker room."

"It's really upsetting because Lia doesn't seem to care how it makes anyone else feel,' the swimmer continued. 'The 35 of us are just supposed to accept being uncomfortable in our own space and locker room for, like, the feelings of one."

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10445679/Lia-Thomas-UPenn-teammate-says-trans-swimmer-doesnt-cover-genitals-locker-room.html#comments

@PurgatoryOfPotholes

barleybadminton

incidentally if she is meeting the hormone requirement to swim on the women's team it is highly unlikely she is developing spontaneous erections in the changing rooms - it never ceases to amaze me how ignorant people who claim to speak with such authority on trans issues are about the very basics of trans bodies.

I must confess some confusion here, as not long ago, various activists mocked women for thinking cross-sex hormones were relevant. They took pains to assure women that transwomen could still sustain erections while on hormonal therapy.

Oh dear! Which extreme trans activist should we trust?

Who am I to disagree with a transwoman's lived experience?

To be transphobic you have to be against a trans individual. I simply do not believe Lia Thomas is transgender. I prescribe to the belief that being trans is more than just "self-ID'.

In regards to trans rights we are seeing a demand to water down the requirements of transition, first it was surgery not being required, cross-sex hormones not required, and now you only need to live as the opposite sex for a minimal amount of time.

I fully expect Lia Thomas to detransition once they've retired from swimming. It seems like they're doing to minimum required at the moment, probably to make it easier with detransitioning.

@PurgatoryOfPotholes

Who am I to disagree with a transwoman's lived experience?

I remember that one! I am sure does as well.

I am still keen to know the answers to the questions upthread

• are the women on the swimming team allowed to object to having male bodies with penises, erect or otherwise in the womens changing rooms?
• how many of the women would have to object for the objection to be valid?
• given that a male with a man gender identity doing the same thing as Lia would be committing an offence by causing these women and girls to see his penis, what is it about the presence of a woman gender identity, (which exists only in Thomas’s head, and cannot be seen or experienced by any of the women present), that turns this from an offence against them, to an obligation on their part to accept it? When nothing about their experience of the situation has changed? Does this seem right or fair, that their reality is overridden by someone else’s beliefs? Really?

given that a male with a man gender identity doing the same thing as Lia would be committing an offence by causing these women and girls to see his penis

No he wouldn't if it was accidental.

@barleybadminton

given that a male with a man gender identity doing the same thing as Lia would be committing an offence by causing these women and girls to see his penis

No he wouldn't if it was accidental.

No, barley. If he was in awomens changing room, which is the issue that we are debating- it wouldn’t be an accident, would it?

So yes, he likely would be committing an offence, because otherwise, what would he be doing in there?

@barleybadminton

given that a male with a man gender identity doing the same thing as Lia would be committing an offence by causing these women and girls to see his penis

No he wouldn't if it was accidental.

How does a man accidentally expose himself to women?

Is this the Benny Hill show?

"No he wouldn't if it was accidental."

Hopefully now this has been reported and Lia is clear that women are uncomfortable seeing Lia's penis, Lia can be extra careful that no further "accidents" happen.

It’s not exactly accidental. University swimmers train a lot, they also study hard, and need to get chlorine off their skin. There is a lot of showering and changing. The very fact of being in a female changing room guarantees accidental exposure.

How does a man accidentally expose himself to women?

Isn't that just the standard flasher defence?

Can think of a sure fire way to stop penises being accidentally exposed to women in women's changing rooms.

Works also for purposely exposed penises...

I'm glad at least one person appears to have some integrity

////

You pop up only to scold us. Not to show solidarity with these actual women.

So bloody predictable

@barleybadminton

given that a male with a man gender identity doing the same thing as Lia would be committing an offence by causing these women and girls to see his penis

No he wouldn't if it was accidental.

Hiw do you accidentally go into a female changing room, start undressing and exposing your penis?

@barleybadminton

I have raised this point before, but its the presence of the other women in the changing room that is the attraction here. Otherwise it's just a room with four walls.

A room with four walls and shower cubicles presumably. It's not likely many universities have a spare room like that handy so the only alternative would be for her to change with the men and in most states in the US trans women have a legal right to use spaces inline with their gender identity.

Yes, indeed. Just as I am entitled to be in the staff changing room when the very much younger colleagues I line manage are getting changed.

I don't do so, because I know it makes them uncomfortable, and part of being a decent human being is not making people uncomfortable even when it's perfectly legal to do so.

It wouldn't take much give and take here. Lia could change before, or after, the rest of the team. Lia could change entirely in a shower cubical. I've done that plenty of times in hostels; in the unlikely event there isn't a changing area attatched, all you have to do is put your clothes in a dry bag . Lia could change in the dorm, when the event is on campus, or in a spare dorm room when it's not. Lia could change under a dryrobe.

I appreciate Lia considers that Lia is entitled in law to be there. Being a decent person means making compromises to ease the discomfort of others, even if you have a legal entitlement. Because #bekind works both ways.

As I see it, the women on Lia's team have made plenty of compromises. What compromises has Lia made? Why does Lia think the legal right to be somewhere is more important than the discomfort caused to the people who should be friends and teammates? That's very much not normal female behaviour or socialisation.

Why, in fact, is Lia acting like an entitled man?

No he wouldn't if it was accidental.

Seriously, do you have problems keeping your genitals under wraps? I have never "accidentally" exposed my genitals in a changing room. There may be places where I am less self conscious about nudity but when I've intended my genitals to remain covered I've somehow managed to succeed. So no, if Lia's penis was exposed it was intentional.

No he wouldn't if it was accidental

Sounds like Lia is a bit accident prone then when naked cock swinging around the women's changing rooms.

Or maybe not.

While Lia covers herself with a towel sometimes, there’s a decent amount of nudity, the swimmer said. She and others have had a glimpse at her private parts

There is no evidence of sexual impropriety, there isn't even an allegation of that and it is not just transphobic but libellous to suggest otherwise.

There is evidence of sexual impropriety. A person of the male sex going into a female changing room and choosing to strip off in front of non consenting females , even if the display of their penis was accidental, is hardly proper.

what is it about the presence of a woman gender identity, (which exists only in Thomas’s head, and cannot be seen or experienced by any of the women present), that turns this from an offence against them, to an obligation on their part to accept it? When nothing about their experience of the situation has changed? Does this seem right or fair, that their reality is overridden by someone else’s beliefs? Really?

Would love to hear this answered.

No treatment on earth can change Lia's sex.

If you boil it all down, it really just comes down to one thing, doesn't it? Women not being allowed to say "no".
Fucking barbaric.

Lia has only very lately begun identifying as a woman, isn't that so?

So what the long haired lover from Liverpool describes, surely applies.
For those using text-readers

Sex drive, libido.....early transition trans women will still have a T driven libido and urges...and spontaneous erections etc which alone can cause dysphoria....the change from T dominant to E dominant changes all the dynamics totally.

Thomas is in the prime of life and an athlete, so I wonder if spontaneous erections would be more likely to persist post-hormones for Thomas, than they would be in a middle-aged transitioning male.

It seems it would be much kinder to Thomas to allocate Thomas a private area. It would avoid Thomas being exposed to the type of visual stimulus (i.e. the sight of female athletes undressing and showering) that would trigger a non-spontaneous erection and accompanying dysphoria and also give Thomas the privacy to deal with any spontaneous erections LT might have showering alone.

Exactly, 334. The crux of it is that neither Thomas nor Barley give a fig for the opinion on sexual propriety of either the women in the Penn changing room, or here. Which was the point of paragraph I wrote that barley tried to nitpick while misreading. Why is Thomas’ perception of sexual propriety deemed more important than the female students perception of it?

It’s a real head scratcher.

Women = adult human females, just to clarify my point.

@frazzled1 you see, I see that photo, and see Lia chatting with teammates.

And I know that if my running mates came up to me and said, "Would you mind not biting your toenails, it squicks me out". Or, "I'm feeling uncomfortable, could you give me a bit of space please?" Or "Would you mind not wearing that tshirt with the spider on it - I'm phobic." Then what I would do would be to stop biting my toenails, or I would back off a bit, or I would never wear that tshirt again.

What I wouldn't do is say "But I have a legal right, so you just have to deal with it".

That's not the nice thing to do. It's not the kind thing to do, particularly not to your teammates. It's not the female socialised thing to do.

Which why it becomes abundantly clear why, in the group photo of the team on the beach, the women standing next to Lia are curling themselves away to create space.

What if all the women swimmers claimed to identify with a No defined sex / gender group needing their own changing room. As in not male or female changing room. That way they could get their own space. As Lia Thomas has been insisting on changing in the female changing room she would have to stay put.