Lia Thomas (again)

[Signalbox]

Reports that Lia Thomas has been exposing themselves to female team mates and that they have complained and been ignored on multiple occasions...

"While Lia covers herself with a towel sometimes, there’s a decent amount of nudity, the swimmer said. She and others have had a glimpse at her private parts."

"She stated that team members have raised their concern with the coach, trying to get Thomas ousted from the female locker room, but got nowhere."

"Multiple swimmers have raised it, multiple different times,' the UPenn swimmer said. 'But we were basically told that we could not ostracize Lia by not having her in the locker room and that there's nothing we can do about it, that we basically have to roll over and accept it, or we cannot use our own locker room."

"It's really upsetting because Lia doesn't seem to care how it makes anyone else feel,' the swimmer continued. 'The 35 of us are just supposed to accept being uncomfortable in our own space and locker room for, like, the feelings of one."

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10445679/Lia-Thomas-UPenn-teammate-says-trans-swimmer-doesnt-cover-genitals-locker-room.html#comments

If there's one thing this thread shows, it's that women being afraid to individually and openly stand up for their rights in a way that thwarts the desires of a high profile transwoman, because they are afraid of what the punishment will be, is of enormous value to trans activists such as barleybadminton.

@barleybadminton

This sums it up beautifully. The poor girls are being victimised by someone who is acting in a criminal way

What crime has she committed?

A person with a penis has exposed their penis in a women's changing room.

Do you think people with penises exposing their penises in women's changing rooms is OK?

@barleybadminton

This sums it up beautifully. The poor girls are being victimised by someone who is acting in a criminal way

What crime has she committed?

Not familiar with US law but presumably they have something equivalent to indecent exposure.

I have raised this point before, but its the presence of the other women in the changing room that is the attraction here. Otherwise it's just a room with four walls.

A room with four walls and shower cubicles presumably. It's not likely many universities have a spare room like that handy so the only alternative would be for her to change with the men and in most states in the US trans women have a legal right to use spaces inline with their gender identity.

@barleybadminton

I have raised this point before, but its the presence of the other women in the changing room that is the attraction here. Otherwise it's just a room with four walls.

A room with four walls and shower cubicles presumably. It's not likely many universities have a spare room like that handy so the only alternative would be for her to change with the men and in most states in the US trans women have a legal right to use spaces inline with their gender identity.

Why can't the men just 'be kind' and let Lia change with them?

in most states in the US trans women have a legal right to use spaces inline with their gender identity.

What is a 'gender identity' and why is it more important than someone's sex?

What crime has she committed?

You know full well that if this person did not declare their identity as being trans, that they would be committing a crime barely.

This shows just how much you are willing to minimise what is happening.

It never happened.
If if did it wasn't that bad.
If it was, then it wasn't meant.
If it was then it wasn't x's fault.
If it was, then y deserved it.

And so we go on.

The question should be, and always should have been, why is it that transitioned males feel they SHOULD be undressing in the communal female changing rooms. Knowing they are designated single sex spaces, and have always been and that females are actually NOT ok with this, were never asked (ANOTHER CLAIM MADE BY THE TRANS COMMUNITY THAT THEY NEVER HAD EVIDENCE TO SUPPORT BUT NOW EXPECT WOMEN TO PRODUCE EVIDENCE TO DISPROVE) and that some females will be harmed by their presence.

It was asked up thread, but I guess you missed it.

It's not likely many universities have a spare room like that handy so the only alternative would be for her to change with the men

This is not women's issue to solve at all.

And I think these are Ivy League universities, so there will most likely be amble spare shower facilities around the university to use.

And if it was an enclosed cubicle, why are female students saying they have 'glimpsed' Thomas's penis.

Not familiar with US law but presumably they have something equivalent to indecent exposure.

The laws vary from state to state but in the UK the crime of indecent exposure is if a person has purposefully exposed their genitalia, with the intention of them being seen and causing alarm and distress.

There is no evidence either of those things apply in Lia's case.

@barleybadminton

I have raised this point before, but its the presence of the other women in the changing room that is the attraction here. Otherwise it's just a room with four walls.

A room with four walls and shower cubicles presumably. It's not likely many universities have a spare room like that handy so the only alternative would be for her to change with the men and in most states in the US trans women have a legal right to use spaces inline with their gender identity.

Why can't Lia change with the men? Why does Lia want to change with the women when Lia knows the women don't want them there and doesn't want to see their penis?

""A room with four walls and shower cubicles presumably. It's not likely many universities have a spare room like that handy so the only alternative would be for her to change with the men and in most states in the US trans women have a legal right to use spaces inline with their gender identity."

Why can't they wait until the others have finished changing?
Why can't they lobby for a changing room for themselves?
Why can't they change with the men? Why is it that the women are the ones having to make the space when this person is in fact a BIOLOGICAL MALE?
Why is the feeling in their head more important the the actual and very real sex of their body and that of the other women?
Changing rooms are segregated by SEX not by thoughts and feelings.

and in most states in the US trans women have a legal right to use spaces inline with their gender identity.

And expose themselves to women? God when people say there are no reported problems with self-ID is this the sort of “no problems” they are talking about? Multiple women complaining that a person with a penis is exposing themselves to them in a changing room and nothing being done about it. Women are fucked.

I look forward actually to the first court case about this type of exposure.

Because I would like to see a male give a good enough argument against the fact that in a communal female changing space that they would not be aware that they would be seen. Hence, it is intentional them being there in the first place. And that they are completely ignorant of the distress and harm being caused to females by being there.

But how many females will be harmed before one is brave enough to take this to court?

Instead, let's discuss what type of male feel they SHOULD be undressing in the communal female changing rooms. Knowing they are designated single sex spaces, and have always been and that females are actually NOT ok with this, were never asked and that some females will be harmed by their presence.

What type of male does this?

I don't of things have changed since I lived in the US, but IME Americans were much less okay with nudity, even in single-sex spaces (as women's changing rooms were back then). They'd all hide under their towels, while the Europeans just chucked their kit off.

If is it is now as it was then, then even a 'glimpse' is... surprising, shall we say.

I want a clear statement from this political lobby and TW athletes about what they feel their responsibilities are towards the female people they are so determined to share space with.

We have an absolute fuckton of demands, and requirements and entitlements. I want to know now, what reciprocation do females get in all this? Because spot the sex based disadvantages in this.

If Lia 'identified as a man' they wouldn't be allowed to change with the women. And if they did go in the female changing rooms and revealed a 'glimpse' of penis, then the women would be allowed to be uncomfortable, anxious and challenge them.

But just because Lia 'identifies as a woman' the team mates aren't allowed to feel those things and aren't allowed to challenge Lia. Because to do so if to be 'transphobic'. They either accept that they will be flashed at (because if a male who identified as a man got their penis out in a female changing room, that would be 'flashing' would it not?) or they take Laurie Penny's advice and 'avert their eyes' (even though if it were a male who identified as a man they wouldn't have to do this, they could challenge him).

So the feelings and actions of these women, everything they are allowed to do and feel in this situation, depends entirely on the feelings of the male in their presence?

Plus ca change.......

I am yet to see anything that has been presented by pp that shows any benefit at all to any female swimmer competing against this male.

It is almost like all the benefit is derived by one sex only in this situation.

So, yes.

Plus ca change ....

I was watching Pointless last night- a final of two women v. two men. I was struck by how gigantic the men looked alongside the women. Anyone who says there is no advantage for transwomen (men) over women are just plain lying through their teeth.....

It's not likely many universities have a spare room like that handy so the only alternative would be for her to change with the men

Well that's embarrassingly binary thinking. Let's take a moment to strain our brains and find a solution which maintains both the safety of vulnerable males and the safety and dignity of women. I know, I know - how about third spaces? Oh not validating. Is that really more important than safety? It could only be prioritised by those who have no idea what it really means to fear for your personal safety, some might describe that as a privilege.

It's not likely many universities have a spare room like that handy so the only alternative would be for her to change with the men

What is wrong with a male person changing with the men?

It's not likely many universities have a spare room like that handy so the only alternative would be for her to change with the men

Then I suggest LT demands that Penn proves its trans-inclusiveness and makes provision for swimmers like Thomas. Such a space will be very useful for future non-binary identifying swimmers who might find it invalidating to be forced to change with females or males.

Why make excuses for such hostile architecture? Why would LT prefer to risk upsetting and inconveniencing female teammates than to ask an institution of higher education to perform its job and make accommodations?

@Helleofabore well I think I knew the answer really (and also knew I'd be deleted and get a wee rap on the knuckles for offending 🤷‍♀️) but sometimes I just can't help myself.

I call it rather transphobic of Penn that they did not prevent such discontent arising, by providing LT with a separate changing area to start with.

Surely it must be rather nervewracking for Thomas to change in such conditions, knowing that a slip of the towel may distress teammates and may be interpreted as a deliberate attempt to intimidate them? Surely if Thomas had been provided with a separate room, Thomas would have been shielded from speculation about Thomas's intentions. One could term it that Thomas would have been safeguarded from negative conclusions being drawn about them in the press.

she was walking round with an erection

I am new around here, but can I ask you @barleybadminton why are you not only defending this person so vehemently but also accusing the female team mates of lying?

I agree that this is the DM, and we do not know all the information, but you still remind me of my rather misogynistic MIL when a rape claim appears in the news.

barleybadminton

incidentally if she is meeting the hormone requirement to swim on the women's team it is highly unlikely she is developing spontaneous erections in the changing rooms - it never ceases to amaze me how ignorant people who claim to speak with such authority on trans issues are about the very basics of trans bodies.

I must confess some confusion here, as not long ago, various activists mocked women for thinking cross-sex hormones were relevant. They took pains to assure women that transwomen could still sustain erections while on hormonal therapy.