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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Lia Thomas (again)

323 replies

Signalbox · 27/01/2022 20:18

Reports that Lia Thomas has been exposing themselves to female team mates and that they have complained and been ignored on multiple occasions...

"While Lia covers herself with a towel sometimes, there’s a decent amount of nudity, the swimmer said. She and others have had a glimpse at her private parts."

"She stated that team members have raised their concern with the coach, trying to get Thomas ousted from the female locker room, but got nowhere."

"Multiple swimmers have raised it, multiple different times,' the UPenn swimmer said. 'But we were basically told that we could not ostracize Lia by not having her in the locker room and that there's nothing we can do about it, that we basically have to roll over and accept it, or we cannot use our own locker room."

"It's really upsetting because Lia doesn't seem to care how it makes anyone else feel,' the swimmer continued. 'The 35 of us are just supposed to accept being uncomfortable in our own space and locker room for, like, the feelings of one."

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10445679/Lia-Thomas-UPenn-teammate-says-trans-swimmer-doesnt-cover-genitals-locker-room.html#comments

OP posts:
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11
Clymene · 29/01/2022 09:27

I thought this tweet from Blanchard was interesting in the context of this thread

Lia Thomas (again)
vivariumvivariumsvivaria · 29/01/2022 13:07

Blanchard always seems sympathetic towards the people he has studied. So, yes, that is an interesting tweet to put out with the current news cycle.

EmbarrassingHadrosaurus · 29/01/2022 13:24

@Clymene

I thought this tweet from Blanchard was interesting in the context of this thread
I'm waiting for the follow-up in which he affirms that it's women's fault that they need this sort of brute force affirmation.

Initiated by a male, enforced by male decision-makers, but definitely the fault of women and feminists. Above all, the fault of feminists, it's very important you should never forget that. (Yes, I do intend you to read that in a Gru voice.)

waterbabys · 29/01/2022 18:04

I used to swim competitively, got as far as National competitions. My fellow female swimmers were top in Scotland but we could still be beaten in some by boys in our club who didn't even make the district competitions, never mind the Nationals! It's a disgrace.

I did think it was suspicious that Lia underperformed in only one event - the one against the FTM swimmer (who isn't even on T yet). Makes a lot more sense now we know they're mates, met up before the competition and the others are certain they cooked up a deliberate loss.

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 29/01/2022 20:44

I have a query. We are frequently told that hardly any women truly mind mixed-sex toilet and changing rooms, and that therefore those who object should shut up, and either self-exclude from facilities or get over their discomfort.

I have various objections to this line of reasoning, but that is not the issue right now. The point is that it is claimed that the number of women who will find it uncomfortable to share spaces is marginal, and that we are told it is justifiable to ignore these women because they are (it is claimed) to be a minority.

However, let us analyse the UPenn swim team by the numbers. There is Lia, who wishes to share the women's changing room. So that is one person who doesn't want to go in the men's changing room/change on their own. There seem to be 35 women in the swim team, and it is clear multiple members of them object to Thomas' presence in the showers. I doubt any of them actively desire Thomas to use the showers with them; who can believe they would be crying into their cereal if Thomas said "I want to shower privately?" At best they are neutral on the matter.

So if we assume Thomas wants to be in the women's showers, then that means 2.8% (to 1 d.p.) of the swim team presumably want Thomas to be present (i.e. Thomas!)

What if the other 35 members, 97.2% (to 1 d.p.) would all prefer that Thomas shower separately? Why is it that in this case, the minority's preferences trump the majority's?

MrBlobbyLivesNextDoor · 29/01/2022 20:52

Is it because Thomas is special?

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 29/01/2022 20:55

Something beyond mere arithmetic is at work here, clearly.

MrBlobbyLivesNextDoor · 29/01/2022 21:44

It's not maths as we know it. It must have a secret formula applied to it that only the special people know.

Artichokeleaves · 29/01/2022 21:59

The formula being sex based thinking.

You can split who matters and who doesn't entirely by sex. Shall we play spot the male supremacism?

DoubleYouOhEmAyEn · 29/01/2022 22:53

Purgatory your maths is based on the assumption that 1 man =1 woman. Clearly 1 man is worth more than 1 woman in genderwoo terms

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 29/01/2022 22:58

Ah! That sheds light on these curious statements.

Lia Thomas (again)
Lia Thomas (again)
PurgatoryOfPotholes · 29/01/2022 23:13

Text for those using screen-readers

Professor Grace Lavery [on twitter]:
The violence I'm trying to redress is the imposition of state penalties for harmful conduct, which are usually barbaric in themselves, and always inequitably enforced. So in this case, preventing the act you call "indecent exposure" is less important to me than abolishing cops.

I invite you to consider that those who commit indecent exposure are known to escalate to rape and murder of women. Further, keep it in mind that many women would never have been raped or murdered at all, if police had taken the initial incidents of indecent exposure seriously. Women die because we treat flashing too lightly.

Why isn't preventing the act we call feminist stickering of lamp-posts also less important to activists than abolishing cops?

Other image:
A picture of Sophie Grace Chappell, a professor of philosophy. To Chappell's right appear the words:

"It wouldn't matter if there was a slight spike..."

At the bottom, it is captioned:
Sophie Grace Chappell, talking about the possible murders of women due to self-ID

Whatsnewpussyhat · 30/01/2022 02:05

It's funny how many of these TRA's want to abolish the cops isn't it.

Who cares about women being murdered as long as men get what they demand eh....

ArabellaScott · 30/01/2022 10:59

@PurgatoryOfPotholes

Ah! That sheds light on these curious statements.
That's a school of arithmetic I don't want to go to.

It's perhaps unsurprising that Lavery is willing to sacrifice women's safety to achieve what he cares more about.

ArabellaScott · 30/01/2022 11:01

Gracious!

Lia Thomas (again)
Artichokeleaves · 30/01/2022 12:37

Sex based thinking, male people of higher value, prioritisation and importance by the biological accident of birth, female people of lesser importance even to the point of being collateral damage in protecting the interests of males. Gosh this all sounds so familiar.

I remain very amused that this wholly sex based thinking is an active part of the same verbal narrative as 'sex doesn't exist, no one knows what sex anyone is, therefore males can use female spaces (and females had better not use any other M words for them or else!)

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 30/01/2022 13:46

While we were discussing Lavery's logic last night, Lavery posted this last night at 22:54. I have no words.

terfs think that everyone secretly thinks trans women are men, and that they’ll win because of it.

i think that everyone is secretly as much of a pervert as we are, and we’ll win because of it.

Is this the argument for mixed-sex changing rooms?

Lia Thomas (again)
EdithStourton · 30/01/2022 13:52

@PurgatoryOfPotholes

While we were discussing Lavery's logic last night, Lavery posted this last night at 22:54. I have no words.

terfs think that everyone secretly thinks trans women are men, and that they’ll win because of it.

i think that everyone is secretly as much of a pervert as we are, and we’ll win because of it.

Is this the argument for mixed-sex changing rooms?

ShockShockShock Just how blatant can someone be?
Helleofabore · 30/01/2022 13:56

Lavery has a book due out. They will be even more outrageously ‘me me me’ than usual.

Any person interested in Lavery, only needs to find the abuse photos proudly published as splendid sex with their transitioned female spouse (just married at the time too I think) to be able to judge Lavery’s character.

Biting a cheek so hard it leaves marks for days and photographing it proudly. And publishing the pic of having a whole hand in said spouses mouth leaves little presence as to how this male views females. Even the ones they profess to ‘love’.

MrBlobbyLivesNextDoor · 30/01/2022 14:38

@PurgatoryOfPotholes

While we were discussing Lavery's logic last night, Lavery posted this last night at 22:54. I have no words.

terfs think that everyone secretly thinks trans women are men, and that they’ll win because of it.

i think that everyone is secretly as much of a pervert as we are, and we’ll win because of it.

Is this the argument for mixed-sex changing rooms?

Seems to be. At least we finally have some honesty.

They won't win.

ArabellaScott · 30/01/2022 15:47

@PurgatoryOfPotholes

While we were discussing Lavery's logic last night, Lavery posted this last night at 22:54. I have no words.

terfs think that everyone secretly thinks trans women are men, and that they’ll win because of it.

i think that everyone is secretly as much of a pervert as we are, and we’ll win because of it.

Is this the argument for mixed-sex changing rooms?

Well, cripes. It is good to see this level of honesty, at least. Let's hope the Scottish government are shown this quote.
PurgatoryOfPotholes · 30/01/2022 16:09

update, published today

The University of Pennsylvania is weighing whether to pursue legal action iftransgender swimmerLia Thomas is prohibited from competing in the upcoming NCAA women’s swimming championship, according to a report.

A swimmer on the university’s women’s team toldFox News, ““I have a feeling that if USA Swimming changes their rules, they will be filing a lawsuit for Lia to swim, but they wouldn’t do that for us.”

“That’s just really upsetting,” the swimmer told the outlet under the condition of anonymity,adding that she had heard about the potential lawsuit that from “some of the administrators.”

Thomas is eligible to compete on the women’s team under current USA Swimming rules that require a year of testosterone suppression. Under new NCAA rules, transgender athletes will be required to document testosterone levels to remain eligible, leaving Thomas’ eligibility for the NCAA women’s championships up in the air.

The NCAA announced earlier this week that it hadupdated its transgender-participation policyto reflect the practices of the U.S. and International Olympic Committees. Under the new policy, transgender participation in a particular sport will be determined by that sport’s national governing body. If no such governing body exists, participation will be determined by the sport’s international federation rules. In the event that an international federation has no transgender policy, the American branch of a particular sport will follow the IOC policy.

The new NCAA policy says that, by March, “Transgender student-athletes will need to document sport-specific testosterone levels beginning four weeks before their sport’s championship selections. Starting with the 2022-23 academic year, transgender student-athletes will need documented levels at the beginning of their season and a second documentation six months after the first. They will also need documented testosterone levels four weeks before championship selections. Full implementation would begin with the 2023-24 academic year.”

The University of Pennsylvania swimmer told Fox News the change makes her “a little bit more hopeful” because the swimmers “kind of realize that it’s not just testosterone levels.”

“It’s testosterone levels from the last 20 years and how that affected, you know, the fact that [Thomas] went through male puberty and the way that built her heart and lungs and her hands and the way she circulates blood and the lactic acid and all that stuff.”

“Stuff that – it’s not just the difference between two girls and how one might have slightly larger lungs and that gives them a slight advantage,” she added. “These are monumental advantages that biological males just develop through puberty, and it’s not something that a year of [hormone treatments] can suppress because they still have all the muscle mass they had from the last 20 years.”

The swimmer went on to slam how the University of Pennsylvania has handled the situation.

“They’re just proving, once again, that they don’t actually care about their women athletes,” the swimmer said. “They say that they care and that they’re here for our emotions, but why do we have to be gracious losers? . . . Who are you to tell me that I shouldn’t want to win because I do want to win. I’m swimming. I’m dedicating more than 20 hours a week to the sport.

She continued: “Obviously, I want to win. You can’t just tell me I should be happy with second place. I’m not. And these people in Penn’s administrative department who just think that women should just roll over — it’s disturbing, and it’s reminiscent of the 1970s when they were fighting for Title IX and stuff like that. They don’t actually care about women at all.”

From www.nationalreview.com/news/upenn-may-sue-if-transgender-swimmer-is-barred-from-womens-championship/

Ohnohedident · 30/01/2022 16:37

@PurgatoryOfPotholes

While we were discussing Lavery's logic last night, Lavery posted this last night at 22:54. I have no words.

terfs think that everyone secretly thinks trans women are men, and that they’ll win because of it.

i think that everyone is secretly as much of a pervert as we are, and we’ll win because of it.

Is this the argument for mixed-sex changing rooms?

It his 'arguement' for disapearing all boundaries around sex (sex as in fucking, not sex as in gender) Its not really an arguement as such as its not trying to give point in favour of a theory, its more a plain statement. (he is saying the quiet part out loud here and its interesting to note he issed it late at night (after a couple of drinks?))

Firstly the statement only makes sense if you remember that when he says 'everyone' he means men.

He is saying that women think they will win this battle because reality is on their side.
He thinks he is on to a winner because he is assuming that the rest of the male population will put their sexal desires (he is banking on peodophillia and other nasties being prevelent in the male population) before all other considerations (like he does).

InvisibleDragon · 30/01/2022 16:57

Thank you for the update Purgatory

This is such a great statement from one of the women on the swim team:

The University of Pennsylvania swimmer told Fox News the change makes her “a little bit more hopeful” because the swimmers “kind of realize that it’s not just testosterone levels.”

“It’s testosterone levels from the last 20 years and how that affected, you know, the fact that [Thomas] went through male puberty and the way that built her heart and lungs and her hands and the way she circulates blood and the lactic acid and all that stuff.”

“Stuff that – it’s not just the difference between two girls and how one might have slightly larger lungs and that gives them a slight advantage,” she added. “These are monumental advantages that biological males just develop through puberty, and it’s not something that a year of [hormone treatments] can suppress because they still have all the muscle mass they had from the last 20 years.”

The swimmer went on to slam how the University of Pennsylvania has handled the situation.

“They’re just proving, once again, that they don’t actually care about their women athletes,” the swimmer said. “They say that they care and that they’re here for our emotions, but why do we have to be gracious losers? . . . Who are you to tell me that I shouldn’t want to win because I do want to win. I’m swimming. I’m dedicating more than 20 hours a week to the sport.

She continued: “Obviously, I want to win. You can’t just tell me I should be happy with second place. I’m not. And these people in Penn’s administrative department who just think that women should just roll over — it’s disturbing, and it’s reminiscent of the 1970s when they were fighting for Title IX and stuff like that. They don’t actually care about women at all.”

It has everything:

  • the facts about male puberty
  • asserting women's rights to competitive sport and to be the main characters not just supporting roles
  • a comment on the wider political context of Title IX and the choices made by the UPenn administration.
ArabellaScott · 30/01/2022 17:16

'they’re here for our emotions,'

That's big of them. Silly weepy women will learn to cope with losing, is the message there.

Someone noted that many of these girls are on scholarships connected to their swimming skills/abilities, so they can't risk losing their place on the team without potentially impacting their education, future career and life prospects.

It's more than just 'emotions'.