Male midwife facing 29 charges of misconduct,

[TheLoneRager]

NMC hearing started today, expected to last four days, of a senior male midwife accused of, among other things, having taken pictures of two women having caesarian sections without their permission and also filmed himself performing a sex act in a hospital toilet.
He faces 29 misconduct charges.

Will be watching this case this week.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10439033/Bullying-male-midwife-alleged-taken-pictures-two-women-having-Caesarean-sections.html

@RedToothBrush

Let me put things another way. If a lack of consent, leading to assault is normal this undermines trust between patients and hcps across the board.

Women caught in this systematically might not a) be necessarily aware that they have been sexually abused b) feel that there is no one they can turn to for support or be taken seriously because they lack trust in the NHS across the board.

Thats why culturally, its important to ram home consent and respect for patients so that patients KNOW when the line has been crossed and KNOW their complaint won't just be ignored or dismissed and KNOW that someone cares about their well being.

Abuse within an establishment is enabled by poor cultural attitudes to the people its supposed to serve. People won't speak up, if they feel they will be punished in someway for doing so or because they think things will merely be covered up because they are just a nobody.

Abusers seek out people who are LEAST ABLE and LEAST LIKELY to challenge what is happening. So you have to consider this as part of the issue.

Absolutely this.

I also think it's wider than maternity or gynaecological care there are lots of departments in hospital women can feel/be vunerable (- though I'm not convinced male MW are a great thing).

@Whatwouldscullydo

So again women solving the issue , by dragging friends along, who shock horror might have work and responsibilities. Rather than just saying no to a man?

Why are you so keen for men to he able to be able to intimately examin women

WTF? It is quite common for dozens of different types of medical appointments for the patient to be advised to bring a friend/relative along with them - if the patient's condition is particularly distressing to them and they want a familiar face there; if they don't speak English and need someone they like and trust to interpret for them; if they are going to need assistance to get home afterwards... (Along with the ongoing staffing issues in the underfunded NHS which make it a good idea to have someone there to fetch you drinks and snacks or go and yell for help if you suddenly deteriorate).

Several posters have said that men should not be allowed to be midwives, along with yelling that any man who is interested in midwifery must be a potential rapist because otherwise why would he want to touch or look at fannies etc.

'yelling'

yeah, i noticed the ''yelling''.

at least we're not actually 'hysterical' yet

Bigotry is saying that no men should be allowed to work in maternity or gynaecological care because they, by virtue of being men, must be sexual predators.

No. There is 1. a higher risk so it's understandable women have reservations and 2. women's reasons for setting those personal boundaries are theirs to make and nobody should be tossing around words like 'bigotry' when we're discussing women's consent.

@GrealishHairband
I’m not disagreeing with you - but thought I’d say again I was sexually assaulted by a purportedly gay paediatric consultant- he wasn’t examine me, or meant to be anywhere near anything like that.
Even “obviously camp” does not mean sexual assault can’t be perpetrated by men.
Or asexual men - as in the case of Dr Hamid

And of course- sexual assault is not “caused” by sexual desire. Desire or attraction may help single out a target for a predator but do are caring people m, confident people etc etc.

@Blue4YOU no absolutely not I agree, I just wondered if it had an impact on how they were perceived by the women.

I’m sorry that happened to you.

There is no way to mitigate against potential abuse by a male HCP unless cctv, chaperones and being able to request a female HCP is normalised.
I get an eye roll from admin when I ask for a chaperone (that is for my daughter’s appointments) and I tell the doctor and chaperones that I was sexually assaulted by a consultant in their hospital. Then I get sighs and more eye rolls if my daughter cries.
It’s a shit system

@Staryflight445

female midwives/ nurses have also done disgusting things though. Including murdering patients.

You could never stop men from becoming midwives, the majority of them are fab! There’s always going to be some that aren’t but that’s the same for women too.

Plus the issue of trans men who give birth, imagine if they couldn’t access male healthcare for womens issues?

Yes, women can and do also commit crimes. Horrific ones. Just not at the same rate, or usually with the same level of vioence as men. Proportionality, safeguarding. Key terms

We could easily stop men from becoming mid wives. It wouldn't even take new legislation. Just a different decision based on current legislation

And transmen are women, They don't need male healthcare. Not even for their faux male appendages. Ask me how I know and I will tell you, in some detail, on the wheres and whyfors of remedial work on a transman's penis pump. All undertaken without recourse to any male healthcare. Though obviously that particular transman wasn't going to give birth - mainly because being female was what he had transitionedout of! It wouldn't be at all conducive to his mental health!

I feel i want to add my anecdote. Even though in a discussion like this individual experiences can be easily poo poo'd and can't match up to the strength of actual statistics.

The head of practice at our GPs was a gynecologist. I don't know the technicalities of speculums but when he'd finished a smear test he would hit the handle to 'unwind it' or whatever, and walk away leaving it spinning/closing.

I always found that really disrespectful. He wasn't very gentle at all in fact. I hated smear tests with him.

@ArabellaScott

Bigotry is saying that no men should be allowed to work in maternity or gynaecological care because they, by virtue of being men, must be sexual predators.

No. There is 1. a higher risk so it's understandable women have reservations and 2. women's reasons for setting those personal boundaries are theirs to make and nobody should be tossing around words like 'bigotry' when we're discussing women's consent.

Why is it when women try to set boundaries, that try to keep themselves and other women safe, they get called names?

It wouldn't be so bad if it was just men getting annoyed and calling women names, but it's other women. It's astounding to me.
It seems some women hear of abuse victims, tape victims etc and instead of thing, There but for the grace of God go I, they hurl themselves at the feet of men to defend men from having to make any alterations to their lives.

@GrealishHairband
Thank you.
And definitely women assume safety with gay men. I did.
Two and a half years later I’m still undergoing trauma therapy and having nightmares etc

Several posters have said that men should not be allowed to be midwives, along with yelling that any man who is interested in midwifery must be a potential rapist because otherwise why would he want to touch or look at fannies etc.

Several posters have indeed shared their opinion and others have shared their different perspectives.

I realise the difficulties in interpreting 'yelling' through the medium of text but that feels rather hyperbolic as does the unnuanced summary of the claim about "potential rapist" and the ascribing of motives.

Nonetheless, given the information in the OP I think we would all agree that the charges are grave and cover a wide range of consent issues (amongst other items) that merit discussion. This is a good companion piece to the AIBU thread about students and consent.

@MaryAndHerNet
Couldn’t agree more!
Except there are also the hordes of male commenters n social media talking about how women should not be allowed to have anonymous reporting of sexual offences, saying “another good man” accused and so on.

@Blue4YOU

There is no way to mitigate against potential abuse by a male HCP unless cctv, chaperones and being able to request a female HCP is normalised. I get an eye roll from admin when I ask for a chaperone (that is for my daughter’s appointments) and I tell the doctor and chaperones that I was sexually assaulted by a consultant in their hospital. Then I get sighs and more eye rolls if my daughter cries. It’s a shit system

Eyerolling or similar behaviours are a massive part of the issue.

Its a constant undermining of women and essentially a power abuse to make women feel uncomfortable in making a request.

You then get a ripple in effect for how women are treated. Its definitely done more to women because of sexism and the idea that women should not assert themselves and in many cases enforce their existing rights.

This is why cultural changes through out the nhs are needed to stop patients feeling they are being a nuisance.

@RedToothBrush
Hear hear!!

I'm never entirely sure that 'more cctv' is a good answer to any social problem, though.
CUltural changes in healthcare, such as encouraging patients to feel they can speak up and make requests and be listened to are definitely a good idea.

Mind you, even then things can get complicated. On the one hand we have patients being dismissed as whiners and troublemakers when they have a genuine complaint (whether that is of assault by HCPs or being misdiagnosed as timewasters when there is something seriously, dangerously wrong with them)... but then we have people refusing proven treatment in favour of demanding some grifter nonsense they read about online (all those antivaxxers with Covid screaming for Ivermecting)

I don't think men should be midwives. They're there to support women through a uniquely female experience and I just don't think that's appropriate for a male. Drs etc are different although we do need to be able to ask for females when we want one.

And yes constantly surprised at the number of women who can't conceive that other women think differently to them/ have had different experiences and seem obsessed with protecting mens feelings.

The article is very shocking and I wonder how many complaints or issues were dismissed with eye rolls before any action was taken.

@Wreath21

I'm never entirely sure that 'more cctv' is a good answer to any social problem, though. CUltural changes in healthcare, such as encouraging patients to feel they can speak up and make requests and be listened to are definitely a good idea.

Yeah. And the sheer weirdness of officially filming something to ensure that it isn't unofficially filmed. Meaning that, for any given period of time, any man who so chooses, could find a way to access that film.

As has happened oh so often already, in many different circumstances.

Could we not just listen to what women want?

[quote CaveMum]@KevinTheKoala there was a report recently that stated women were more likely to die during surgery performed by a man so there may be something in saying let’s have female Drs (actual females, not folk playing dress up) for women and male Drs for men. I certainly wouldn’t have an issue with it.

amp.theguardian.com/society/2022/jan/04/women-more-likely-die-operation-male-surgeon-study[/quote]
These figures were discussed with the surgeon researcher on BBCs More or Less recently (last week) and showed that there was too much difference within sub categories of surgeries (ie heart surgery includes different types of surgeries and different outcomes based on the underlying health conditions if the patient, plus there are different risks with different surgeries across specialities) for the conclusion to be how it was reported in the media. The researching surgeon did not agree with the media headlines/articles about it.

@Wreath21

I'm never entirely sure that 'more cctv' is a good answer to any social problem, though. CUltural changes in healthcare, such as encouraging patients to feel they can speak up and make requests and be listened to are definitely a good idea.

God absoluetely this.

It was a slippery slope that caused crimes to happen and social problems to be left to fester rather than be dealt with at root.

@WhiteCatmas

You can’t train people not be perverts, but you can train people who are not performing scans well or internal exams well.

Perverts should be removed from the system before they even had a chance to qualify.

They will usually be more motivated than others to do a good job in training, to be the nicest, kindest one. Friendliest. Maybe even very slightly "camp". Or very "professional". These are people who are dedicated to a life in their ultimate job, the one that gives them a trusted position and access to the population they want to abuse. They will not generally fuck up in the course. Only the stupid ones do that.

There's a reason they're usually not caught after the first, second or third instance of abuse. They cultivate trust and loyalty bonds in the people they need. You'll only see it if you're someone who they don't care about - because they know nobody will believe you.

Yet other researchers did! Male and female.

The stats were eyewatering, not small margins in some cases. And many confounding factors were taken into consideration. It's impossible to include them all, you wouldn't be abe to make any comparisons at all!

I'd be very, very loath to dismiss the research because a male researching surgeon's professional opinion was bruised by them. He is welcome to add his voice to the debate, but not to dismiss, or be interpreted as dismissing, the research without very specific methodological reasons. And a wide spread of situations isn't necessarily an issue.

It's a new model of understanding. Currently based on 1.3 million patients who underwent one of 21 common elective surgeries in Ontario, Canada between 2007 and 2019. Not a small or quick study, by any means.

And the study itself makes no judgements, says the underlying reasons for the figures are not known, more study required. So again, one male researching surgeon should throw his weight behind further study rather than simply dismiss what could be something that could possibly be detrimental to 50+% of the world population.

As a researcher he should know better. Better than to make any simple statements, especially directly to the media!