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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Matt Walsh asks trans activist 'what is a woman'..

615 replies

sacredfeminina · 20/01/2022 23:30

Stumbled accross this on twitter. Matt Walsh, an American political commentator is on a chat show and confronts transactivist to define a woman and tells him that he is appropriating womanhood.

Then after being told that he has 'traumatised' the activists... He provides this response!!

Wow. He says sh*t straight.... Haha!

Talkshow:

Response:
twitter.com/MattWalshBlog/status/1484268313815441418?s=20

OP posts:
Helleofabore · 23/01/2022 23:17

Where has anyone done that?!

Maybe you have a different interpretation of this eels.

Are trans people trying to ban abortion? Do trans activists believe in racial hierarchies? Are trans activists bombing abortion clinics? Do trans activists want to limit women's access to contraception? Do trans people want to ban gay marriage and think that women should become 'trad wives' and restricted to the domestic sphere?

I certainly read it as barely telling us what trans people do or don’t support.

CheeseMmmm · 23/01/2022 23:23

With a fair few threads and conversations the things raised on this topic. And a few others as well tbf.

I personally get slightly irritated when it's about something totally USA, when it's something pretty specific to aspects of USA politics/ laws/ culture/ society/ values/ political structure states specific courts etc.

I'm interested for sure in plenty at a sort of wider lens view, but when there's zoom in so more detail specific background etc I tend to feel. There's enough going on here without having to Google this and try and get to grips with state history of laws there and that sort of level.

Apart from the general news the main things I keep up with are to do with women's issues. Esp for me around hosp religious problem, maternal death rates, plus the obvious stuff.

I also try keep up Europe where various issues all related to similar religious views in govt etc, and also areas lots of surrogacy, trafficking etc. Poland, Russia, Ukraine and so on. As well as obv trying to keep an eye on global news all main international major news.

I don't understand why post about things overseas with no context links etc. Like this OP, I can't imagine he's generally known here why would he be IYSWIM.

I would never go on a USA site and post tl stuff about here, Poland, Germany, Belarus whatever without context and info. Because I would think that readers may not know what is about.

In general on MN all over and Def here a fair bit that we obv know this that and the other.

The amount of googling I had to do to try and work out who the guy was, what about, what his line, who audience, what style, etc etc.

I really think esp with an OP like this. Providing some info is pretty important. Rather than as posted earlier, expecting readers to go off and Google.

allmywhat · 23/01/2022 23:23

Just want to say that I think we are much, much more at risk of a Cultural Revolution coming from the free speech suppressing, woman-hating, mob-forming Newspeak contingent of the self-identifying left than we are at any risk of a right wing authoritarian regime. The Long March Through the Institutions is already complete.

Not that there's any difference for the people under the boot. But I'd bet my boots that if it's coming here, it's coming wrapped in the sad remnants of a rainbow.

IndigoToo · 23/01/2022 23:25

@CheeseMmmm - I suggest you read the thread from where you left it to go and sleep. It has definitely moved on….

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 23/01/2022 23:26

For those who are not left-wing feminists and so had no idea about the recent history of the Socialist Workers' Party, I offer some highlights of the New Stateman's attempt to explain it all.

article extract
In 2010, one of its leading members, who has always been referred to as “Comrade Delta”, was accused of sexually assaulting a young female “comrade”, and the party’s attempt to deal with the matter via a “disputes committee” composed largely of his colleagues has provoked anger and derision. Three further allegations of rape prompted claims that sexual abuse was “endemic” within the organisation.

(continues)

The party’s decision to investigate the allegation internally, through its disputes committee, rather than referring it to the police, is the most remarkable aspect of the affair: ithas astonished people outside the SWP, and some within it, too. “What right does the party have to organise its very own ‘kangaroo court’ investigation and judgment over such serious allegations against a leading member?” wrote the formerSocialist Workerjournalist Tom Walker in his resignation letter. “None whatsoever.”

David Renton, who is also a barrister and has dealt with cases of rape and sexual harassment, believes that it didn’t occur to the disputes committee to suggest that the woman should go to the police – as one of its members later said, the committee had “no faith in the bourgeois court system to deliver justice”.

Comrade W’s reasons for not reporting the case to the police are less clear, but Renton suggests she may have had two concerns: as well as the understandable fear that the police would treat her case insensitively, she may have believed that their priority would be to secure a conviction against the leader of a revolutionary party – an attitude, he adds, that stems from an overestimation of the SWP’s significance. “People on the left often do this,” Renton says, citing Julian Assange’s belief that the rape charges against him must be politically motivated because he is “the world’s number-one bad guy”. In other words, she may have been trying to protect the organisation from what she saw as a “predatory man” who should not be in a leadership position, and from state scrutiny.

Regardless of what her motives were, Comrade W was “doubly betrayed”, says another former member called Linda Rodgers. She came to the SWP because she trusted it, and it should have told her it wasn’t competent to investigate. “Would the DC [disputes committee] have investigated a murder?” Rodgers wrote. “I would guess not, but then what does that say about the level of seriousness with which the CC and DC treat rape?”

Kimber maintains that because the complainant did not want to go to the police, they had no choice but to investigate themselves. Yet the decision left the disputes committee “hopelessly out of its depth”, David Renton says. None of its members had relevant experience, nor did they not seek advice from party members who were lawyers. “I’m gobsmacked that no one ever said
to the SWP, ‘Look, if you take statements, you’re collecting criminal evidence.’”

Published accounts of the hearing, which was held over two days in October 2012, exposed even more egregious flaws: Comrade Delta was supplied with details of the complainant’s case weeks in advance but she was not allowed to see his evidence beforehand, and the committee members – who included colleagues of Delta’s, old and new – asked her questions about her drinking habits and sexual past. Comrade W left the room in tears, saying that they thought she was a “slut who asked for it”.

Yet it was the suggestion that the leadership had protected one of its own, and persuaded hundreds of members to collude in a cover-up, that convinced many people it was irredeemably corrupt.

(Continues)

The Disputes Committee told the conference that it had reached a unanimous verdict: Comrade Delta had not raped Comrade W. It also found that he was not guilty of being “sexually abusive or harassing”, though not unanimously: the chair of the committee said he had decided “that while sexual harassment was still not proven, it was likely that it had occurred”. He also felt that Delta’s conduct “fell short” of what “one should expect of a CC member”.

The complainant was not allowed to speak, though she had wanted to, but other people spoke on her behalf: one asked the conference to reject the report because of the “serious failings in the way the hearing was conducted” and another said that W felt “completely betrayed” by the way she had been treated since the hearing. Theconference was also told that a second complaint of sexual harassment had been made against Delta which the committee had not investigated. “It was all beyond belief,” Rosie Warren says. “I wasn’t the only one who cried after that session, from fury as well as despair.”

The delegates were given no good reason to approve the report, beyond that the people on the panel were long-standing members with good reputations. “I couldn’t believe those voting in favour of the report had been sat in the same room as me,”Warren says. “I couldn’t believe they were people I had respected, taken leadership from – I couldn’t believe that we were even in the same organisation. I couldn’t believe theinjustice.”

(Continues)

Its broader culture was also called into question. “When you treat human beings as disposable objects in the name ofla causa, when appropriation of activists’ labourand good will is the norm, when exploitation of your own side goes unchallenged, sexual abuse is one probable outcome,” wrote Anna Chen, who worked unpaid on various SWP press campaigns, including Stop the War. She believed the SWP’s habit of “ripping off their activists for wages, thieving their intellectual efforts and claiming credit for their successes” had initiated a pattern of “diminishing regard for their members”, which had led to the point “where even someone’s body is no longer their own”.

The party’s hierarchical structure and its culture of “loyalty beyond logic” concentrated power in the hands of the central committee at the Vauxhall headquarters. Yet the leadership had no intention of “opening up the party’s structures”, as its first response to the debate made plain. Towards the end of January, Alex Callinicos published a long article inSocialist Review, the party’s monthly magazine, which examined the necessity of “deepening and updating Marx’s critique of political economy” and referred to the Delta affair, in passing, as a “difficult disciplinary case”, significant in so far as it prompted “a minority” to dismiss “democratically reached conference decisions” and, hence, undermine democratic centralism.

(continues)

David Renton and 165 other people left in January to form a new group called rs21 (Revolutionary Socialism in the 21st century) and he believes the SWP has been left with no more than 200 active members. Richard Seymour says its rump of “worker-ist activists” is “brain-dead, unpleasant and thuggish” – and destined to become more so. “It is toxic,” he says. “It’s doomed.” [bold mine]

Rosie Warren’s verdict is even more damning: she says the only thing left for the leadership to do is to issue a full apology, and then “declare that anything that was ever good about the SWP has been utterly destroyed, and pack up and go home”. [bold mine]

Continues

www.newstatesman.com/uncategorized/2014/05/comrades-war-decline-and-fall-socialist-workers-party

Anyway, on that cheery note, back to Matt Walsh.

nolongersurprised · 23/01/2022 23:27

But can we stick to discussing Matt Walsh please. Let’s stay on the OP

Yes, it’s very good that the Loudoun County cover up is being given a wider audience, with more to come, from the sound of things.

CheeseMmmm · 23/01/2022 23:32

Found it interesting earlier barley posts.

Various characterisations of gender> sex people (when women, when posting SM) have been experimented with.

  • T*RF
  • Angry manhating feminist
  • Irrational due to male violence massively skewing thinking....

But for a fair while the one that's been foremost is right wing, vv traditional, fundamental Christian of the mould, having the views and fears, that are to be particular to USA.

Getting money from USA, want to ban abortion, racist, homophobic, that set of views. And pointed at UK women all the time.

The fact that our values, laws, society, culture etc is completely different doesn't seem to put them off.

We have plenty on our hands without this sort of cultural steamrollering imo.

Yet when point that out it never washes! Eg few threads other boards everyone being told can't say that racist/ homophobic. And when told no it's not here. Still Insisting mustn't use.

It's so frustrating.

Why are we expected to be really interested and learn all this stuff?

Helleofabore · 23/01/2022 23:32

@PurgatoryOfPotholes

Barley, having raised the subject of homophobia-motivated violence against lesbians, would you like to address why trans activists picketed FiLiA and drew pictures of male genitalia on the pavement, as the women inside listened to livestreams of persecuted lesbians speaking from other countries?
Actually, I would like to hear this reply too?

Or should we expect more sparpling? More distraction and ‘look there is a squirrel’! More outrageous attempts to lay atrocities at our doors, while never answering anything about the genuine incidents we have mentioned. That is good sparpling.

CheeseMmmm · 23/01/2022 23:36

And in fact it's the same as so much other stuff.

Go and educate yourself.
Go and look it all up.
Proof? Go and get me links.
No no you need to read the whole study not just summary. Unless you do that and tell me key points I'm not interested.

And we do it! Or many of us do, often.

I'm trying to get better at saying no, YOU do the work. Not doing well sadly.

NotBadConsidering · 23/01/2022 23:39

@nolongersurprised

But can we stick to discussing Matt Walsh please. Let’s stay on the OP

Yes, it’s very good that the Loudoun County cover up is being given a wider audience, with more to come, from the sound of things.

Yes, there is so much going on to distract from the very important facts about what happened in Loudoun and the fact Walsh raised it in front of a huge audience.

What is there to come?

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 23/01/2022 23:51

it's really interesting that the other guests on that show found Matt Walsh's presence upsetting.

Let's think about the Loudoun county caseS. Note the plural.

extract

The Loudoun County, Virginia, teenage boy charged with the sexual assault of two girls in two Loudoun County schools has been found guilty and sentenced to supervised probation in a residential treatment facility. He is also required to register as a sex offender. Citing the “scary” nature of the boy’s crimes and psychological reports, the judge said this was the first time she had ever required a minor to be put on the registry.

The Loudoun County School District — located in liberal Northern Virginia — has been in the news quite a bit over the past year or so for its ongoing double-pace march toward leftist wokeness — pushing Critical Race Theory and radical “gender” ideology, and demonizing parents who dared to stand up and speak out about those issues. But the icing on the cake was the cover-up of the school-bathroom rape of a female student by a skirt-wearing “transgender” student in May of last year.

On May 28, 2021 the boy — who is unnamed because he is a minor (14 years old at the time of the rape) — entered the girls’ restroom, which is allowed under Loudoun County School policy, and committed forcible sodomy and forcible fellatio against an also-unnamed 15-year-old female student. Though the school was almost immediately made aware of the heinous rape, the “transgender” skirt-wearing boy was allowed to remain in the district. He was transferred to another school in Loudoun County where — no surprise — he sexually assaulted another 15-year-old female student on October 6, 2021.

The “transgender” rapist was found guilty of his crimes Wednesday in Loudoun County Juvenile Court.

After the verdict and before sentencing, the court spent more than an hour hearing victim impact statements. The mother of the 15-year-old victim who was assaulted in May said the rape should have “never occurred,” and added that her daughter would have to live with the trauma of the rape for the rest of her life. That victim’s father, Scott Smith, said, “This whole thing caused division in the community. Division in my business,” adding that he had been accused of “lying for political gain.”

The victim from the second attack (in October) — also 15 years old — read a prepared statement as well, saying, “What you have done to me will forever change my life.” [bold mine]

Of course the first victim’s mother is correct in saying that the crime should have “never occurred.” All it would have taken to avoid the rape of that young woman would have been for the school to not allow people with penises into a restroom designated for people without penises. But the Loudoun County School District has a political agenda to follow, and that agenda positively requires pretending that there is no distinction between boys and girls, between men and women.

It should not have taken a violent and forcible rape to highlight what everyone instinctively already knows: One chief distinction between males and females is that males have penises and females do not.

If only someone had warned the Loudoun County School District and other militant leftists that this was a likely outcome of throwing wide the doors of restrooms, locker rooms, and other intimate spaces intended for females.If onlyright-thinking, conservative publications such as The New American had spent the past few years saying something such as, “If you let boys in restrooms and locker rooms intended for girls, someone is going to be sexually assaulted.”If only. But wait — that ispreciselywhat this magazine and others have been saying for years now. And that is precisely the conversation that many Loudoun County parents were trying to have at school-board meetings at the same time that the district was transferring this rapist to another school where he could rape again.

Those parents were lied to and lied about as the Loudoun County School District worked feverishly to cover up the first rape. Parents were told that everything was fine, and that they were fearmongering and discriminating against “transgender” students. The media reported that those parents were a danger to the community. But those parents were right all along — and school officials knew it.

thenewamerican.com/loudoun-county-transgender-school-rapist-found-guilty/

What about the trauma of those 15 year old girls?

TurquoiseBaubles · 23/01/2022 23:57

But of course it's upsetting.

If you have invested your entire life into an alternative reality, where being trans is wonderful and different and brave and (etc etc) then obviously it's upsetting to be told that some people use the trans label to do terrible things.

The adult response is to say "we condemn those trans people who do terrible things and we will do our utmost to make sure that they are dealt with and not allowed to do any more harm". The current response seems to be "that's too upsetting, don't tell me about it, telling me is much worse".

It applies on these boards too. The loudest, most vehement pro-(trans can do anything they like) posters simply avoid any thread that raises any issue of a transperson doing anything wrong.

CheeseMmmm · 23/01/2022 23:57

So what I find interesting is that barley seems to have had a bit of a reaction around USA Christian right man discussion.

They're awful anti abortion etc etc.

Thing is barley, a massive majority of online commenters Pro gender > sex.

Have been banging on about MN women on this being exactly that. We have been painted as, accused of, shouted at for being exact same as USA right for months and months.

So why the reaction?

Because actually obviously UK is not USA and anyone with any nous knew it was bollocks?

So what does that mean then.

  • It's fine to group women (feminist) who've been agitating all their lives for various oppressed groups esp women.
    As the total opposite to what they are.

  • But when signs those who really are opposite are getting into this topic more. Esp in USA. That's no good either!

I suppose it's the usual.
Women are always in the wrong whatever they do.
Signs in USA then this topic becoming gender> sex one side and the ACTUAL USA right the other.

There's stacks of those more than us. And we're in UK anyway.

You (general you) brought this confrontation by going way over the line with what demanded.

We could and should have been allies. We have said that for years. Until. Fuck with our language, safety, competitions, laws, everything.

But no.

I suppose USA feminists will now be told must fight USA right. Like they always have. And continued even while having all sorts of shit thrown at them.

Infuriating.

NotBadConsidering · 24/01/2022 00:07

It applies on these boards too. The loudest, most vehement pro-(trans can do anything they like) posters simply avoid any thread that raises any issue of a transperson doing anything wrong.

Their absence is always noted though. It’s also noted when they are asked directly about those incidents and they don’t return.

Helleofabore · 24/01/2022 00:14

Yes. Very noticeable when people answer their ‘do x support x’? with clear examples of problematic incidences and show those are not the stellar gotchas they believe, that all those posters are ignored.

I think the reason people have taken notice of Matt Walsh is that he persisted in keeping the focus. He focused on the lack of clarity in this ‘new’ definition of woman.

CheeseMmmm · 24/01/2022 00:19

Things to do with beliefs can't be rationally argued. Because they aren't rational. Hence, beliefs.

In this the gender > sex people have a lot in common with more fundamental religious people of more than one religion for sure.

This topic we're in the middle. Being told to accept a set of beliefs. Just because.

Fact is. In USA. Right wing Christian etc huge numbers. Republican States with plenty in charge who follow what most here would see as extreme beliefs.

Was it strategically a good idea, to fuck off so many women who fight against the most damaging parts of right extreme beliefs?

PurgatoryOfPotholes · 24/01/2022 00:25

No-one thinks the bulk of posters on this board are right-wing, no matter how loudly or repeatedly they say it. "Right-wing" is used as an accusation against people thought to be left-wing, because those are the only targets who would ever worry about it.

Imagine going up to the conservative party conference and shouting accusingly, "you're all tories!" They would stare at you and say, "um, yes, I know?"

NotBadConsidering · 24/01/2022 00:25

I think the reason people have taken notice of Matt Walsh is that he persisted in keeping the focus. He focused on the lack of clarity in this ‘new’ definition of woman.

Yes Hellabore and he makes that good point in the video linked earlier from FB. We are the ones arguing from a position of simple fact. There’s no need for us to make the argument complex because it’s simple.

I made this point earlier in the thread. A simple, age old definition of woman exists. TRAs try to make out it’s us doing something “new” with the definition by linking it to biology. It’s gaslighting. A definition linked to biology IS the definition.

Keep it simple, keep it focused.

Whatiswrongwithmyknee · 24/01/2022 00:27

We are talking about far right regimes where being cancelled doesn't mean you lose your consultancy post or decide to resigm from your university because students were being mean to you or even facing a quiet chat from the police to check your thinking
Yeah so are we Barley. I assume you are not talking about what happened to Kathleen Stock here Barley because you'd have to be a world class a hole to describe the harassment, bullying and threats she endured as students being mean?

We're talking about regimes which legitimate and enable women's rape and torture and promote the permanent physical scarring of the most vulnerable children. Let's not do totalitarian bingo because it's notnl going to look good for you.

TurquoiseBaubles · 24/01/2022 00:30

Exactly, it is extraordinarily simple.

The sports issue is a microcosm of that. Loads of people saying "it's complicated". It really isn't. If we believe men and women should be segregated for sport, then they should be. If we believe some men should compete against women (I personally don't believe so), then all men should.

Same for prisons - I would have more respect for posters who argued, however ignorantly, for getting rid of all sex segregation and putting all prisoners in together. The argument might be weak, but at least it wouldn't be illogical.

CheeseMmmm · 24/01/2022 00:42

Barley thing is.

The number of old school bleeding heart 2nd wave type Feminists, is really small.

I have only met other women who are same thinking as me online. And happily had RL meets with some and made friends etc.

I have never in my whole life met a woman who says yep patriarchy in my life. Who connects things, and sees the common root.

Most people including women are middle ground. Bit this way. Bit that way. And if this issue seems to be getting active challenge from the right they WILL support. Obviously.

USA right ranges from. Not USA so guessing. Bunch who like for tax, spending, that stuff. But also a huge number (seems to me) who are much more extreme. And there's plenty States that way from what I understand.

Reaction to this thread is example.
And same here loads of people saying Tory because this.

By demanding way way too much.
And then really going for generally lefty feminist women and telling everyone they're evil.
It worked. We were never exactly popular anyway!
As hoped, message out there don't listen to them evil.

So here we are. I wonder when those who said women who know what sex is are the biggest risk.

Will realise that they really were looking in the wrong direction.

CheeseMmmm · 24/01/2022 00:50

'No-one thinks the bulk of posters on this board are right-wing'

Don't they?

Most only know what they read on Twitter. Various news sites. Most people tend to access media etc that shares their general outlook on life.

USA people reading, how would they know? And when USA people are told others are far right, very different meaning to here.

Even here most people no clue MN.
Biscuits, pushchairs. The stereotypes about what mums are like come all the time. Live in small world, thinking about babies and school uniforms and going for coffee and when 'hubby' will be home.

Fwr was always seen as a nest of vipers. And v common idea that it had been 'infiltrated' by extreme feminists. Who didn't even have children! And they were poisoning the minds of simple credulous mummies.

No, I really don't think many at all would know that MN whichever bit isn't... Whatever they are told.

NotBadConsidering · 24/01/2022 00:52

The sports issue is a microcosm of that. Loads of people saying "it's complicated". It really isn't. If we believe men and women should be segregated for sport, then they should be. If we believe some men should compete against women (I personally don't believe so), then all men should.

Spot on. “It’s complicated” means one of these things:

a) “I need to deliberately make it complicated to disguise the simple truth”
b) “I am too stupid to understand the simple truth” or
c) “I’m terrified that if I state the simple truth then I will be castigated for it.”

It’s not actually complicated.

CheeseMmmm · 24/01/2022 00:55

Plus of course. Slagging off the sort of feminists that have always been really hated.

Has always been a fun hobby.

People can say what they like because pretty much everyone primed to take on anything that paints us in bad light.

Man haters
Female supremacists
Jealous bitter ugly
'think they're men'
Getting above themselves who do they think they are
Dangerous to families/ marriage/ whole of society
Want to kill male babies
Want women to stop having sex with men ever
Want men sent to prison if a woman says so
And so much more.

Right wing? Sure why not. No more bizarre than anything else been said.

CheeseMmmm · 24/01/2022 00:58

With sports people, fair few said that recently.

And c. Is for sure why for most.

Look what happened to Martina. Martina fucking Navratilova. Living legend. Huge LGB etc activist for years. All round inspirational good egg. And a massive massive global name in sport.

One foot wrong and shit hit fan. And not as bad as would be for someone not retired.