Spectator transwoman journalist

[Gingerbreadrules]

www.spectator.co.uk/article/harry-potter-and-the-strange-absence-of-j-k-rowling

I'm interested in the author of this article and her point of view. I haven't come across Debbie Hayton before but she seems to be a transwoman who accepts that she remains biologically male, and that trans rights should not take away women's rights. I have literally never come across this before (and I am heartened by it). She describes herself as a transwoman (and also in other places, a transexual, which I thought was not allowed terminology these days).

HoardingSamphireSaurus

WheresMyAlex
Hi @DebbieInBirmingham, I don’t want to derail the thread but can I just say I thought you did a stellar job debating James Max the other day. It’s so refreshing to hear a TW speak up for biological reality x
And yet so sad that nobody said the same about KJK. We had to wait for a man to repeat much of what she said before many here would speak up uncritically.

JKJ responses: I don't agree with all she says but...

DH responses: Oooh Debbie you were stellar...

Sometimes we women are our own worst enemies!

Yes. Even when women are aware of they way we're socialised, its a hard habit to break.

Isn't it?

I want to say FANGIRL??? FFS!!!

But won't. Because, Naughty Step and socialisation.

@DebbieInBirmingham

I'm often asked, "how many trans people think the same way as you, Debbie?"

The glib answer is none - I have my own views that are unique to me and everyone else's thoughts are going to be at least slightly different.

But in real life there are a range of views that tend not to be apparent on social media. Some have no interest in taking their views online, while others are unwilling to speak out because they see what happens to those who do. But even among those of us who speak out I find social media imposes orthodoxies on us according to the group we are in. It is safer to conform to the views of the group than stand aside from it and say things like, "I've been thinking, and I don't think that's right."

But I'd say the disquiet among trans people about gender identity ideology is rather more common than you would gather from Twitter.

That makes perfect sense. SM is not a place for calm debate. Zero point in sticking your head above the parapet. The raging TRAs wouldn't listen anyway - trans folk who are modest in their requirements for inclusion, anti bullying and basic rights, and just to live their lives would be/are denounced as imposters and irrelevant, as are the thousands of young de-transitioners. Who needs that?

Really grateful for @DebbieInBirmingham - your heightened profile must cost you dearly - and others willing to at least try and bring some reason to the table, at significant personal expense.

Hopeful that the pushback on gender identity ideology grows hugely this year - particularity against the outrageous influences on our children.

On the other hand, it is threads like this one and some others started this past week that show that lurkers are coming out to start threads and discussions. And that they are keen to learn so they can form their own opinions, while showing that they are quite new to this issue and that they haven't yet heard of some of those who we have become familiar with.

That is the power of MN.

Thanks for posting OP. There is always a good discussion to be had.

God yes. Don't want to stop or stifle discussion. I only got here because I lurked for a while, then posted and got a strip or two torn off me for my naivety.

I seem to be short on patience for others going through the same process. For which I apologise, unreservedly

@HoardingSamphireSaurus

Isn't it?

I want to say FANGIRL??? FFS!!!

But won't. Because, Naughty Step and socialisation.

I know

Has that NASUWT guidance been denounced and withdrawn yet?

Has that NASUWT guidance been denounced and withdrawn yet?

For people who might not be familiar with that, Dr Hayton wrote guidance for the NASUWT stating that male teachers should be allowed to use female toilets if they choose to, including if they’re just crossdressing at a staff party.

@FortySeven

Thanks *@DebbieInBirmingham*, I haven’t always agreed with everything you’ve said but you always come across as respectful and level-headed and I’m grateful to you and other trans people who are capable of civil debate.

Absolutely this.

@HoardingSamphireSaurus

Isn't it?

I want to say FANGIRL??? FFS!!!

But won't. Because, Naughty Step and socialisation.

Its very like the way people were fawning over the trans OP on that got deleted.

I want to say FANGIRL??? FFS!!!

Quite. It comes to something when a victim of AGP is deleted from the feminist section of a largely women centred site, whilst an autogynephile is 'fangirled' on the same thread.

@EmpressaurusWitchDoesntBurn

Has that NASUWT guidance been denounced and withdrawn yet?

For people who might not be familiar with that, Dr Hayton wrote guidance for the NASUWT stating that male teachers should be allowed to use female toilets if they choose to, including if they’re just crossdressing at a staff party.

@DebbieInBirmingham just in case you want to reply to this. You normally ignore this question, which I think means you still expect some men to get school children to call them "miss" as they do women teachers, and you still think female teachers shouldn't have single-sex spaces as you believe some men can choose to use them.

I consider this an anti-women position, which you might want to clarify seeing as you are being "fan-girled" on a feminist forum.

@EmpressaurusWitchDoesntBurn

Has that NASUWT guidance been denounced and withdrawn yet?

For people who might not be familiar with that, Dr Hayton wrote guidance for the NASUWT stating that male teachers should be allowed to use female toilets if they choose to, including if they’re just crossdressing at a staff party.

This.

Why are they not trying to put right this wrong, which they have inflicted, on women??

For people who might not be familiar with that, Dr Hayton wrote guidance for the NASUWT stating that male teachers should be allowed to use female toilets if they choose to, including if they’re just crossdressing at a staff party.

Quilette Published on February 2, 2020
'I May Have Gender Dysphoria. But I Still Prefer to Base My Life on Biology, Not Fantasy'
written by Debbie Hayton
(extract)
"I speak from experience when I say that it’s difficult for autogynephiles to admit the simple truth that they are simply heterosexual males who use the conceit of female self-identification as a means to rationalize their sexual attraction to a female version of themselves. As any sex therapist can attest, people often feel ashamed about unusual sexual proclivities. Shame is a powerful emotion, and a person who suffers from it often will be driven to control their narrative in a way that protects their sense of self-worth.

Autogynephilia drove my own transsexualism." (continues)

quillette.com/2020/02/02/i-may-have-gender-dysphoria-but-i-still-prefer-to-base-my-life-on-biology-not-fantasy/

'NASUWT Trans Equality in Schools and Colleges
Advice and Guidance for Teachers and Leaders' published 2017
At the front & end is acknowledgement,

^"The NASUWT is very grateful to Dr Debbie Hayton (Teacher) for
assisting in the development of this guidance."^

NASUWT advice to SLT makes clear the Union will support perceived discrimination claims with legal action though this is clearly more for the benefit of its members who are Schoolmasters under the wide self-id trans umbrella (including cross-dressers) rather than Women Teachers who have the protected characteristic of sex.

(extract)
"Supporting Dual-role People
Some people manage their gender dysphoria by living as a man or a woman in different aspects of their lives. For example, they may work in a male role but socialise in a female role.
Although the protected characteristic under the Equality Act is gender reassignment, it is best to assume that dual-role people are covered by perception that they might transition.
Like everyone else they deserve to be treated with dignity
and respect.
In practical terms, there should be no issues unless the different aspects of their lives overlap in some way. For example, a male teacher might want to attend a staff party as a woman. In that case they would probably prefer to use a female name and feminine pronouns, and they should be allowed to use the toilets appropriate to the gender in which they are presenting.
As referenced on page 4, it is always far better to ask the person concerned before applying any arbitrary label to them. " (continues)

thread:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3938537-NASUWT-Trans-Equality-in-Schools

@Datun

I want to say FANGIRL??? FFS!!!

Quite. It comes to something when a victim of AGP is deleted from the feminist section of a largely women centred site, whilst an autogynephile is 'fangirled' on the same thread.

Doesn't it just Datun...quite something to behold given that Hayton is responsible for that shocking NASUWT guidance and doesn't appear to be doing much to remedy it.

Hello R0wantrees, haven't seen you for ages. Thought we'd lost you!

For women new to this who want to learn more about AGP, links to trans widow's testimonies can be found here. A new story has been added today (see end of thread)

New Transwidows website: Trans Widows Voices
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3856287-New-Transwidows-website-Trans-Widows-Voices

Masdintle I look in occasionally when I have time. It doesn't seem to be the feminist consciousness raising space that it used to be.

I know what you mean

@TinselAngel

For women new to this who want to learn more about AGP, links to trans widow's testimonies can be found here. A new story has been added today (see end of thread)

New Transwidows website: Trans Widows Voices
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3856287-New-Transwidows-website-Trans-Widows-Voices

Thanks for posting this Tinsel, I think it would be a better use of one's time to read TWV than to be centering males with trans identities...

Thank you, R0wantrees, for posting the text of the NASUWT guidance.
As ever, this stuff never fails to shock, how ever often we read it!

"It is always far better to ask
the person concerned"

The complete failure, as ever, to appreciate that the people affected here are the women. They should be asking the f***g women.

But even among those of us who speak out I find social media imposes orthodoxies on us according to the group we are in. It is safer to conform to the views of the group than stand aside from it and say things like, "I've been thinking, and I don't think that's right."

Dr Hayton has repeatedly described an "insatiable" desire to change his body.

Unherd article:
'Why I became trans
The psychological distress was so severe, I felt I had no choice'
BY DEBBIE HAYTON
August 24, 2021
(extract)
"So why am I also transsexual? What could have caused psychological distress so severe that I felt I had no choice but to transition? At the time — nine years ago — the urge to change not only my social presentation but also my body was irresistible." (continues)
unherd.com/2021/08/why-i-became-trans/

Youtube interview with Maya
'A conversation with Debbie Hayton. AGP, transition , the trans movement and God'
4 Sept 2021
(transcript extracts)
"I'd learned that other people were transitioning. I started talking to
people who were transitioning and I was desperate to do it myself. I didn't really understand why at the time, didn't understand what was going on inside me, but the the urge and the need to do it was insatiable. In the end within about a year or so of that I transitioned" (continues)

"People say, "why are you campaigning on this?"
Yeah I am concerned about kids. I am concerned about, you know, my female friends and their rights.

But you know I came into this in 2016 purely out of self-interest, you know, and that was where I came from.

I was aware, like you said, the gatekeeping has always been well, there's a bit of gatekeeping. But I turned up at the gender clinic
and told them what I wanted, you know? The first time I went straight from work. I turned up my shirt and tie and said I want to transition and I want you to help me. (continues)

Yeah yeah, the public thought there was some some huge gatekeeping going on and there wasn't. It was always bluff.

And then when this self-id thing came out I'm thinking, you don't want to shine a light on this, you really don't.
Because the the brighter the light you shine on it, then everybody will realize that there is no gatekeeping. So they're gonna have to start applying some. And secondly, anybody who wants to subvert safeguarding procedures to avoid boundaries is gonna be attracted to this, like a magnet.

Yeah yeah and that's exactly what's happened yeah, so I, you know, I wrote at the time, just keep this quiet we don't want to talk about this" (continues)

www.youtube.com/watch?v=BG4v7UYzTKY

relevant thread (from page 7)
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4303993-posie-parker-s-latest-glasgow?pg=7

It shouldn't require much thinking to recognise what is not right and the reasons why.

@TinselAngel

For women new to this who want to learn more about AGP, links to trans widow's testimonies can be found here. A new story has been added today (see end of thread)

New Transwidows website: Trans Widows Voices
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3856287-New-Transwidows-website-Trans-Widows-Voices

Just read it, Tinsel.

That poor woman went through hell. And they say AGP is a victimless paraphilia? Not for the wives and children.

I'm always happy to answer questions about my own work, including the Quillette piece on autogynephilia and the unherd piece on "why I became trans"
quillette.com/2020/02/02/i-may-have-gender-dysphoria-but-i-still-prefer-to-base-my-life-on-biology-not-fantasy/
unherd.com/2021/08/why-i-became-trans/

They make some attempt to explain what I suspect accounts for most late-onset MTF transsexualism. These ideas divide opinion on different lines to the usual divisions in this debate.

Then you’ll also be happy to talk about the NASUWT guidance, and whether you still stand by what you wrote in it?

For example, a male teacher might want to attend a staff party as a woman. In that case they would probably prefer to use a female name and feminine pronouns, and they should be allowed to use the toilets appropriate to the gender in which they are presenting.

Yeah I am concerned about kids. I am concerned about, you know, my female friends and their rights.

Here's a question, Debbie. Are both these positions yours?

My understanding that you wrote guidance for schools that include advising that the pupils should call a male miss, even if he has AGP and that he should be able to use the female facilities.

How does that square away with you being concerned women's and girls rights?