Review of HP reunion in The Guardian…they just can’t help themselves

[OhDear2200]

www.theguardian.com/tv-and-radio/2022/jan/01/harry-potter-20th-anniversary-return-to-hogwarts-review-perilously-close-to-emetic

I guess they at least note her absence. But can’t help say ‘widely considered as transphobic’. Just why? Why say anything.

It was the best I could find by some one who is known for speaking out on trans rights but isn't aggressive or resorts to insults

The best person you could find was someone who held a man up at gunpoint?

The best? How is holding a man up at gunpoint not aggressive?

A man who I believe went on to die as a result of the interaction with Lees.

Jesus wept I thought you were being sarcastic. But you were being serious?

Right. Have you followed the Maya Forstater case? Because those tweets misrepresent it, woefully. I shall try and find a link.

Maya Forstater is not transphobic.

Also, the first screen-shot explicitly says that saying that trans women are men is transphobic.

The GC position is that it is not. It's just the truth.

I, personally, am a people pleaser, and in a real-life situation would use preferred pronouns to be polite.

But I don't believe people can change sex, and it's not right that - due to aggressive campaigning - I would feel too nervous to state that view in public.

MilesJuppismybitch - I'm not here to debate what is said in those posts as to whether it's true or false or if something was twisted, merely to point out that there are people who give their reasons as to why they think what they do, based off of things JKR has said/done/been involved in, in their opinion. Offering a better opinion than "because I say so" like some posters have said is "all they EVER get out of these people".

@Shedmistress

It was the best I could find by some one who is known for speaking out on trans rights but isn't aggressive or resorts to insults

The best person you could find was someone who held a man up at gunpoint?

The best? How is holding a man up at gunpoint not aggressive?

A man who I believe went on to die as a result of the interaction with Lees.

Jesus wept I thought you were being sarcastic. But you were being serious?

Lees was very young when she comitted that crime. Lees went to prison and as far as I am aware has never re- offended. Are you going to hold it against her for the rest of her life?

Lees has turned her life round from being an under- age prostitute , aka, a victim of child sex abuse, to having a succesful media career.

I don't follow Lees on social media but I'm not aware of her tweeting rape threats etc.

Here is Maya's Crowd Justice page (no longer active, so link should be allowed), where Maya tells her story.

I didnt actively search for it so I only have the one

You did actively search for it as you searched for 'gender critical death'. It is in the search bar at the top of the post.

And you found 1. Someone who doesn't actually exist on twitter under the name @native_natami. So cannot be researched to see if they actually are gender critical or just posting to make it look as if gender critical people are issuing death threats.

But saying 'die about it freak' isn't an actual death threat is it? Death threats are 'i will kill you if you don't shut up about x,y or z'.

Oh, I see. So you're just saying that both sides can be polite? And have opinions.

I mean, I agree with that.

@Blackbird1234

I'm going to try and post some screenshots of posters who I think explained their reasons why they feel jkr is transphobic, rather than using "because I said so". Another disclaimer: I don't agree with everything being said by any means, I do not believe that JKR is transphobic. (I'm sorry if they're out of order, I cant figure out how to get them in order)

Ok, now we’re getting somewhere.

Premise one: JKR is transphobic because of her support for Maya Forstater, who has been legally proven to be transphobic.

• unfortunately, none of this works because Maya wasn’t, and isn’t, and even if she was, supporting her for being fired isn’t in itself an act of transphobia. It’s guilt by association.

Premise two - JKR is transphobic because she believes that only women menstruate. In fact, only women - females - menstruate. much as women who wish they weren’t and men who wish they were women might wish that not to be so, menstruation is a biological process of females and only females. Compelling people to lie about this isn’t progressive, and neither is punishing people who don’t comply.

More to follow….

Milesjuppismybitch - Essentially, yes. I think that both sides have their own opinions and reasons for those opinions that they back up with their own "evidence". Not that only one side has a good argument and the other side never ever gives any example as to why they think what they think. Thus is my point.

Sophoclesthefox- Again, I'm not here to debate the content. Nor the point of people who I do not know, with whom I dont hold the same beliefs.

I think where were talking at cross purposes, blackbird is that to me, respectful debate can only be engaged in when people tell the truth.

The screenshots you’ve posted contain manifest lies - about Maya F, about the book Troubled Blood being “about” a trans serial killer (without spoilering: it absolutely is not), that she is saying women who don’t menstruate aren’t women (she’s saying the exact opposite) - so respectful debate really isn’t possible, because one just gets pulled into refuting the un truths.

Hence the response from here comes across as dismissive, because people engaging in respectful, productive debate don’t usually feel it necessary to spend much time agonising over or engaging with people lying about what is going on.

But saying 'die about it freak' isn't an actual death threat is it? Death threats are 'i will kill you if you don't shut up about x,y or z'.
The actual wording is "Die abt it freak." which doesn't make sense. Unless it is, perhaps, a DYAC for "deal with it freak."

Why was Reddit your first port of call for 'insight'?

respectful debate can only be engaged in when people tell the truth.

Aye.

Because someone has typed an opinion out into a tweet doesn't lend their words any gravitas or veracity.

We are looking for facts, sources, checkable, verifiable, reputable data!

I agree that 'both sides can have opinions and speak words'.

Just going back to the 'Die abt it freak' it seems that the poster deleted their account after a flurry of mean anti trans tweets and no more.

So we can't actually look and see who this might be.

Fair play though, they were keen to show how 'gender critical' they were for all the screenshots.

And if you would engage with some of the people on that Reddit thread (for example), they would provide you with that as some are doing in the screenshots. The point stands that to them the sources they are citing etc reflect real proof of JKR being transphobic in their opinion and they're debating it in a (mostly) calm and respectful manner and not just simply saying "because I say so". My point was never whether you agree with what they're saying/citing, simply that people are doing it and not just stamping their feet and yelling that they're right you're wrong because they say so.

Also, I went onto reddit because I find it a good place to get all opinions. I typed in "JK Rowling" in the search bar and got a lot of results from people who stand with her, against her, in the middle, in the middle but kind of with her/against her in some aspects etc. By far the most threads on that search page were in favour of JKR rather than against.

Yes, ok, but I think PPs are referring to people who come onto MN feminism threads and tell us off, then have no facts to back up their claims of transphobia.

Why would we chase them around social media trying to engage with them?

Where that stance goes wrong, blackbird, is that it treats all opinions as having the same merit. They do not. Facts and opinions really do exist on a spectrum (unlike sex )

Imagine for a minute the vast difference between saying “strawberry ice cream is better than chocolate” and saying “1+1 =2”. The first is clearly an opinion- I think it’s true, you don’t, and there is no objective test that could back either of us up.

The second is a fact (esoteric advanced mathematics aside). It can be clearly evidenced, factually demonstrated, stands true no matter what.

We’re looking for numbers, and you’ve brought strawberry ice cream.

You’ve also confused the requirement to understand people “having an opinion” with a requirement to have other people take that opinion seriously. No such obligation exists, and given the differing standards of evidence I’ve illustrated above, some opinions clearly deserve more weight.

Lastly, a mistake people often make is that, having had their unevidenced opinion dismissed, they equate having lost the argument with being prevented from arguing at all- two very different things.

I don’t mean to pick on you, but you have stumbled into a very fractious debate.

Oh dear, still twittering on with nothing to say...

To be fair to Blackbird someone on the GC 'side' did tweet a post of a ribbon, and just recently someone else retreated a picture that was doctored to say T* are right about everything. Then there was the phrase 'Women won't wheest' that was chalked near Holyrood. Nasty stuff...

So as I said earlier, you wont necessarily agree with what the "other side" is saying and, therefore, deem their argument to have no merit. That is fully your inventive and I'm sure the "other side" do it to the "jkr side" as well. My point was and remains that people on both sides give good arguments, quotes, evidence, articles etc that back up their own views, which is what people on here (and other forums) ask for and say they never get. They do get them, you (general) just dont believe there is any merit as you disagree, but the arguments explaining their full reasons why are there, they are not all stomping their feet saying "because I say so", they are indeed backing their claims with evidence that they believe, much as the JKR side also do.

@Lovelyricepudding

To be fair to Blackbird someone on the GC 'side' did tweet a post of a ribbon, and just recently someone else retreated a picture that was doctored to say T* are right about everything. Then there was the phrase 'Women won't wheest' that was chalked near Holyrood. Nasty stuff...

Stickers too. The horror...the horror!

So the evidence that people can insightfully disagree with JKR is screenshots of people lying on Reddit? Okay…

And the evidence “both sides” send abusive threats? I found those 3 screenshots of brand new abuse while barely lifting a finger, so I would have thought finding similar would have been just as easy. Guess not .

My point was and remains that people on both sides give good arguments, quotes, evidence, articles etc that back up their own views

Yeah, they don’t, though, and neither do you. As has been pointed out, that Reddit “evidence” is full of lies and misrepresentation.

Am tired of this now. PP was correct to say “shit or get off the pot” about eight hours ago. Sound advice!

I've said what my point was many times yet the majority are still missing it, so I don't see any reason to continue. Never mind.

@Blackbird1234

So as I said earlier, you wont necessarily agree with what the "other side" is saying and, therefore, deem their argument to have no merit. That is fully your inventive and I'm sure the "other side" do it to the "jkr side" as well. My point was and remains that people on both sides give good arguments, quotes, evidence, articles etc that back up their own views, which is what people on here (and other forums) ask for and say they never get. They do get them, you (general) just dont believe there is any merit as you disagree, but the arguments explaining their full reasons why are there, they are not all stomping their feet saying "because I say so", they are indeed backing their claims with evidence that they believe, much as the JKR side also do.

Do you know, Blackbird, I have asked soooooooooo many times for evidence of what JKR has said, in her actual quoted words, that is transphobic and never, ever, ever got anything. Nothing. Nada. Zip.

Also: 'what is a woman'?

I can answer that with ease. Trans rights activists? Not seen an answer yet.