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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Review of HP reunion in The Guardian…they just can’t help themselves

287 replies

OhDear2200 · 01/01/2022 17:42

www.theguardian.com/tv-and-radio/2022/jan/01/harry-potter-20th-anniversary-return-to-hogwarts-review-perilously-close-to-emetic

I guess they at least note her absence. But can’t help say ‘widely considered as transphobic’. Just why? Why say anything.

OP posts:
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14
Shedmistress · 04/01/2022 14:12

@Blackbird1234

Shedmistress - Pretty sure I said "people who stand with JKR" not women specifically as men also stand with her. My post was referring to whether the poster meant that women specifically never send death threats, as that's what I thought she meant. Better to ask than to assume and get it wrong.

Senua - We are having a coffee break, is it ok with you that I came back onto this thread because I wanted to? Or do I really not need to ask you for permission 🙄

Stop dithering and post your evidence that any gender critical person has issued death threats.

Male or female. Women or men. Whatever. Just show your workings.

If there are so many you'd have hundreds right?

senua · 04/01/2022 14:12

ok with you that I came back onto this thread because I wanted to? Or do I really not need to ask you for permission
You said that you could provide evidence.
You haven't.
Instead, you've wasted time blathering.
You've had your chance to convince but have blown it.

We all know what's going on.

Sophoclesthefox · 04/01/2022 14:12

@Blackbird1234

Sophoclesthefox - I don't think that JKR is transphobic, nor do I think that GC women will pop out a death threat at the first opportunity. You're annoyed by me speaking on this thread when I don't share the same opinion as you, I get it, but why not actually stick to things I've genuinely said.
I’m not annoyed by you at all. I’m a bit baffled by your position on this thread, though. You seem to be saying that the HP actors are justified in their opinions, because many rational, sensible people share those opinions, including you, based on some things you have read, but you’re reluctant to commit to commenting on what those opinions are, or to share the insightful posts that you found.

It’s a bit of a nothingburger. I don’t really know what you’re arguing for or against so there’s not much to engage with

Waitwhat23 · 04/01/2022 14:28

How surprising that this 'evidence' to show that people who support JKR send rape and death threats isn't forthcoming. It's the mantras of no debate, no evidence, no facts writ large on this thread.

On the other hand...www.terfisaslur.com

Blackbird1234 · 04/01/2022 14:29

Sophoclesthefox - I came onto the thread because I didnt agree that the HP actors should bow out of celebrating their own achievements just because they don't agree with JKR. I don't know if JKR was purposely left out of the reunion, or if she decided not to attend. I don't think it's right if she has been excluded at all, as it remains her work that enabled everyone elses careers. I believe that everyone is entitled to their opinion, JKR included.

The conversation then moved on and my point was that even if an insightful post against JKR was posted by someone, the people standing with JKR probably wouldn't agree with it or deem it insightful/valid enough, because of their own opinion. That was my entire point, that if you're on one side, you're probably not going to think that something the other side says is valid or accept their arguments, so I don't think it's right to say that there has never ever ever been a "good" post against JKR that the supporters would find "good enough".

As for the rest, I'm happy to give my own opinion on it all if people would like to hear it, but I haven't been asked so far.

KimikosNightmare · 04/01/2022 14:29

I'll help Blackbird out. I googled Paris Lees and J K Rowling. I don't follow Lees in any great detail but I'm not aware of Lees ever tweeting anything hateful.

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/690e9e84-c486-11eb-a80c-dfb0d2172f4f?shareToken=e8acfe3a239e5859ab47a5bece03bebc

Sophoclesthefox · 04/01/2022 14:42

The conversation then moved on and my point was that even if an insightful post against JKR was posted by someone, the people standing with JKR probably wouldn't agree with it or deem it insightful/valid enough, because of their own opinion. That was my entire point, that if you're on one side, you're probably not going to think that something the other side says is valid or accept their arguments, so I don't think it's right to say that there has never ever ever been a "good" post against JKR that the supporters would find "good enough"

Well, OK, but the point I’m making is that it is much, much easier to decide if there is a “good enough” reason to traduce JKR for her “transphobia” if people who think there is weight in the accusation would explain how they came to that viewpoint by highlighting her alleged transphobia!

If your position is that you can’t post evidence because it will be dissected and found wanting, then you can’t have much faith in it. Fine. That’s OK. You’re far from alone there.

Sophoclesthefox · 04/01/2022 14:47

If someone brings me really good evidence that disproves something I believe in, I’m open to it. Even if my final position is “I see how you got there, but I still disagree”. Bit hard to do that though without the evidence being presented…

At risk of sounding dismissive. I am not seeing anything much of substance in the linked times article, I have to say, as Lees has missed the point out of the gate that Rowling is weighing in on womens issues, by insisting that she has strayed outside her lane. Lees doesn’t engage with what Rowling said, just that her saying it was upsetting and unecessary.

Blackbird1234 · 04/01/2022 14:48

Kimikos - I don't see how that "helps me out", have I missed something or were you being sarcastic? Genuine question.

Sophoclesthefox - Yes, I 100% agree with you that it is easy, I haven't at all said that JKR is transphobic, personally. I merely said that some of the things I have seen written against JKR hold weight in the mind of that person, but is constantly rebutted by JKR supporters for being not good enough. I don't agree with the people saying JKR is 100% transphobic "because". But I do see why some people feel that the things she has said have contributed, based on what they have written. I've finished sewing so will continue to find posts from people who dont support JKR but who got their thoughts across in a valid (in my opinion) way.

Shedmistress · 04/01/2022 14:48

[quote KimikosNightmare]I'll help Blackbird out. I googled Paris Lees and J K Rowling. I don't follow Lees in any great detail but I'm not aware of Lees ever tweeting anything hateful.

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/690e9e84-c486-11eb-a80c-dfb0d2172f4f?shareToken=e8acfe3a239e5859ab47a5bece03bebc[/quote]
Lol.

Be kind or I'll blow your fucking brains out.

Blackbird1234 · 04/01/2022 14:54

I'm still going through posts but I've found one where the poster seems to explain why they consider JKR transphobic and I find that they made some good points that they seem to resonate with. (Not saying I agree with them, I'm saying they seem to have explained their thoughts well, not perfectly). Should I post a photo, or copy/paste?

Blackbird1234 · 04/01/2022 15:04

Here is a thread on a reddit titled "Why do people consider JKR transphobic" in the Too Afraid To Ask section. www.reddit.com/r/TooAfraidToAsk/comments/nqio9m/why_do_people_consider_jk_rowling_transphobic/

I've not yet read all the way through, but I think that some posters have explained their reasons for their beliefs in an insightful way whilst providing some quotes either by JKR herself, things she has promoted etc etc. I have absolutely no clue if you can access it without having an account so please let me know if thats the case and I'll screenshot.

MistressoftheDarkSide · 04/01/2022 15:07

One of the things I find peculiar in all of this, is that for years many if us, whether knowingly GC or feminist or not probably knew at least one old school transsexual - I knew a couple in my 30s, both older, both "feminised" as far as practicable for the times, both of whom I just accepted as the person they were, without thinking much more beyond it other than seeing them apparently comfortable in their own lives and hell, none of my damn business pretty much.

Only when activism and the movements started does it seem women were suddenly forced to defend themselves from accusations of things that hadn't most likely even crossed their minds for the most part (sweeping generalisation admittedly based on my own experience). Women didn't start this fight, nor did they want it to happen, but faced with changes to language, the commercialisation, the demands that we censor ourselves and play nicely when actually we are being called upon to be complicit with our own erasure, not to mention the threats to safeguarding issues and the interference between parents and children from groups with agendas that may well not be in good faith at all, it wasn't as if we could say nothing as demanded...... so many of us tried to be kind, tried to live and let live, and then suddenly nothing was good enough.

JKR wrote thoughtfully about womens experience and also acknowledged that it is a human of any stripe issue as well, but her qualification is that she is a woman speaking her truth, her perspective and her opinion, which in this alleged Utopia of inclusion being touted deserves as much recognition and consideration as anyone else.

Instead we had tantrums. That's the best way I can describe it. Tantrums that ignored every scrap of nuance, and hideous abuse that just kept the divide growing. I can't help but wonder what the heck the end game is? Full on sex wars? I'm a pacifist on principle, but on occasion my militant bone rears its head.....but the constant appeasement is so damn exhausting.....

Shedmistress · 04/01/2022 15:22

Lol.

2.3k comments.

But you haven't read through.

But you agree with them, all 2.3k of them?

Did you just Google 'why JKR is transphobic'?

Blackbird1234 · 04/01/2022 15:26

Shedmistress - For goodness sake are you even reading what I'm posting? I literally just said that I haven't read them all, but find that SOME posters are getting their points across in the way that posters have requested and that I did NOT agree with everything they're saying.

Shedmistress · 04/01/2022 15:26

Why not tell us which of the 2,300 comments you think is insightful and why?

SigourneyHoward · 04/01/2022 15:26

Sorry to butt in but blackbird - am not sure posting a link to a reddit thread of over 2k comments is really what posters were expecting - which of the comments you've read struck a chord with you and made you think 'yes I see why JKR is transphobic'

Blackbird1234 · 04/01/2022 15:31

Sigourneyhoward - My point has never been that I've read posts that make me believe JKR is transphobic. I do not think that she is transphobic. My point was that I have seen plenty of posts online, by people who are against JKR, explain their reasons why in a larger comment that simply "shes transphobic. Why? Because.". I have not said I agree with their points, but simply that there are people who are posting extensive posts giving all the reasons and sources why they think JKR is transphobic.

I shall screenshot a few that I thought were good posts highlighting their reasons (whilst NOT agreeing with everything they're saying and thinking JKR is transphobic!)

KimikosNightmare · 04/01/2022 15:41

@Blackbird1234

Kimikos - I don't see how that "helps me out", have I missed something or were you being sarcastic? Genuine question.

Sophoclesthefox - Yes, I 100% agree with you that it is easy, I haven't at all said that JKR is transphobic, personally. I merely said that some of the things I have seen written against JKR hold weight in the mind of that person, but is constantly rebutted by JKR supporters for being not good enough. I don't agree with the people saying JKR is 100% transphobic "because". But I do see why some people feel that the things she has said have contributed, based on what they have written. I've finished sewing so will continue to find posts from people who dont support JKR but who got their thoughts across in a valid (in my opinion) way.

No it isn't particularly helpful beyond explaining what Rowling's tweets mean personally to Lees.

That's rather the point. It was the best I could find by some one who is known for speaking out on trans rights but isn't aggressive or resorts to insults. If anyone can come up with a calm, rational refutation of Rowling's stance Lees should be a prime candidate.

MenopauseSucks · 04/01/2022 15:41

Kinda off track but I saw this on Twitter.

Daniel Radcliffe has Hogwarts growing out the top of his head.

Couldn't happen to a nicer person.

Review of HP reunion in The Guardian…they just can’t help themselves
Blackbird1234 · 04/01/2022 15:41

I'm going to try and post some screenshots of posters who I think explained their reasons why they feel jkr is transphobic, rather than using "because I said so". Another disclaimer: I don't agree with everything being said by any means, I do not believe that JKR is transphobic. (I'm sorry if they're out of order, I cant figure out how to get them in order)

Review of HP reunion in The Guardian…they just can’t help themselves
Review of HP reunion in The Guardian…they just can’t help themselves
Review of HP reunion in The Guardian…they just can’t help themselves
Blackbird1234 · 04/01/2022 15:42

And this one.

Review of HP reunion in The Guardian…they just can’t help themselves
Blackbird1234 · 04/01/2022 15:45

And here is a screenshot of a tweet from someone who has "I stand with JKR" in the bio that is telling someone to die. I didnt actively search for it so I only have the one. Another disclaimer: I dont believe that this person actually stands with JKR if they are issuing threats like that. Much like I dont believe the trans rights activits who sent threats to JKR stand with trans rights.

Review of HP reunion in The Guardian…they just can’t help themselves
BraveBananaBadge · 04/01/2022 15:46

'Sex is real' is a 'dogwhistle' now? Oh dear.

Blackbird1234 · 04/01/2022 15:46

I'll post more of the comments that I find as and when I find them.

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