Review of HP reunion in The Guardian…they just can’t help themselves

[OhDear2200]

www.theguardian.com/tv-and-radio/2022/jan/01/harry-potter-20th-anniversary-return-to-hogwarts-review-perilously-close-to-emetic

I guess they at least note her absence. But can’t help say ‘widely considered as transphobic’. Just why? Why say anything.

they are indeed backing their claims with evidence that they believe

I'm sure they do believe. But 'opinion' does not equal 'evidence'.

Blackbird1234
Also, they're adults.

Really? Shame they don't seem aware of the fact.

(For your information, a six-foot-four man in his forties can be a very little, insignificant person; it's not to do with mere physical size or age, more to do with meagreness of spirit.)

Arabella - I didnt come on here claiming that JKR is transphobic, because I dont think that she is. I came on here to make a different point that, despite me repeating it many times, people are ignoring. I really dont fancy repeating myself for the goodness knows how many time, it's all in the posts already on the thread.

@Blackbird1234

I've said what my point was many times yet the majority are still missing it, so I don't see any reason to continue. Never mind.

You said you’ve seen insightful comments that are worth considering. Your examples of insightful comments are comments that blatantly lie. If your definition of insightful is “includes lies” then I also don’t see any reason for you to continue.

I think what you mean is there are comments from people who managed to express their opinion and hatred of her without calling her a fucking bitch, and this qualifies as insightful.

It doesn’t.

These people themselves may also think they’re offering insight, but when the rest of us know they’re lying, it doesn’t really hold up.

Your point is that none of JKR’s supporters would be willing to consider an opinion offered if it was insightful, because we are all just as blinkered. I would really like the opportunity to prove you’re wrong, but I still haven’t seen an insightful post to appraise.

Just one without lies even?

Actually, it all started off as it being said that no one who is against JKR ever says more than "because I say so" when they're asked about their reasons for their thoughts, and I said that this wasnt true, that I've seen plenty of posts from people explaining their views, giving their reasons, giving their evidence, citing quotes, etc. I also said that it's unlikely that even when presented with all of these things, people supporting JKR would be more than likely to deem the entire thing invalid because they find it all to be lies, which is exactly what is happening here. Did I say that they have irrefutable proof that JKR is 100% a transphobe that would blow all supporters out of the water? No. Not once. What is evidence to you that JKR is not transphobic, is perhaps not to someone else who has an entirely different view and life experience, who has seen the situation in a way different to how you have done. It all started because I have seen people post long and insightful to them posts about their opinions and have not just said "because I say so". What is insightful to you, is not necessarily to others. Has she tweeted a blatantly and horrifically transphobic tweet? No. Has she said things that SOME consider to be transphobic and SOME dont? Yes. Have both sides given their arguments as to why they believe what they believe? Yes. That was my point.

You know, it occurs to me that arguing with people who have an idealogical belief in something is as futile as arguing with anyone who has been brainwashed by a religion or cult, as it might be the Family Federation for World Peace and Unification or QAnon, or with an alcoholic about alcohol. You won't convince them by arguing; they have no way of seeing any argument which doesn't agree with their conviction.

For instance, in order to counter "Trans people utter death threats", finding one trans person who (probably, mostly) doesn't utter deaths threats really isn't any argument whatever, but apparently it is seen as such by those who really believe that women are evil and trans people are only and always brave, beautiful and members of the most oppressed, marginalised and threatened group of people in the world.

PS: I know many trans people, and they do not utter death threats. It may be that I am somewhat selective, and don't have anything to do with people who utter death threats, man, women or multi-sexual Martian...

I've seen plenty of posts from people explaining their views, giving their reasons, giving their evidence, citing quotes, etc

You’ve said this again, but you haven’t posted any evidence of such, and the evidence you did post were screenshots of a Reddit forum of people lying, and certainly without quotes.

You didn’t originally say they were insightful to them you said they were insightful. Of course people who post anything anywhere are going to think their posts are insightful to them .

You also said you’ve seen “plenty” of abuse from GC people and supporters of JKR that is equal to those death and rape threats. You haven’t.

Genuinely scratching my head with this thread and if it hadn't been for the surrogacy thread you started OP, I would have thought you were being deliberately obtuse. At best.

You haven't posted evidence of JKR's crimes, you haven't posted 'good points about why she is so reviled, you have said there are good points but failed to specific what they are and why. You haven't explained, precisely, what JKR has done to merit the monstering she has received.

Please post, in sentences, what these arguments are so that we might be able to, in sentences, refute them.

Huh? The OP has made no claims about JKR at all, in either of the two posts probably-she has put up in this thread.

Did you mean Blackbird1234?

Yes I think they did, I had a thread on surrogacy a few days ago.

Once again, what I was talking about was posts explaining their views so as to have a conversation (that anyone is free to debate) rather than just saying "because I say so". I didnt say that the posts I screenshot contained solid facts, nor that I agree with them, simply that the people said more than just one sentence and they openly gave their reasons for their opinion. As far as I'm aware, something being "insightful" doesnt mean that it's the truth, I did not claim that they said the truth.

Apologies, yes I meant Blackbird. Wish there was an edit button.

Blackbird I know you think you are clear in your point, but I'm afraid I don't understand. Are you saying that all points of view are equal, if the holders earnestly believe them? Or whether they are the 'truth', or fact or fiction?

Miladyberseko - I'm sorry if I'm not being clear. This topic began because the poster NotBadConsidering said that they had never seen anyone anywhere on the internet quote JKRs words and say why they're transphobic, that they have only ever seen an "explanation" of "because". I have seen people give a full explanation of their reasons (not saying that they are correct) and somehow we ended up here. I believe all opinions are valid in the holders mind, but not that they're all equal and truthful - they perhaps are to that person only. A person can wholeheartedly believe in their own opinion, of course, but I dont think that makes it truthful to everyone else, no.

I have seen people give a full explanation of their reasons (not saying that they are correct) and somehow we ended up here.

You said you had seen insightful comments. Even the comments you screenshot don’t give reasons or give reasons based on lies. Nothing insightful.

You also said you had seen equal levels of abuse. Still waiting for evidence of that.

Blackbird
I agree people can believe they are right and earnestly defend their opinion as fact. Even running away very fast from Godwin comparisons, my mother does this fantastically well.

But so what?

Are we supposed to say, 'ah ok then, do feel free to self identify and come in and watch my 12 year old daughter getting changed'? Or acquiesce to their gazillions of demands, and make sure we stay alert for the new set of demands on women, on our rights?

Is that the end of your point or is there a next step?

And the original point from Blackbird was that these actors should be okay to say they disagree without qualifying their statements, because no one should be obliged to do so and others have done so well anyway so Radcliffe et al can just go along with that. When the latter is false, it makes the former false also.

Also Blackbird, I know you are new here, but there have been many arguments proposed on this board to defend Self ID, and over the very many years I have been here, not a single argument in favour of Self ID has stood up to proper debate and scrutiny.

But there are a lot of lurkers on these boards, which is why the women here will patiently post, over and over, to the many who ask genuine questions, and to robustly refute the many who come to accuse, deride, mock or insult.

Most of the regular posters came across this board wondering WTF this issues was all about, wondering what all the fuss was about, why people weren't being 'kind'. We stuck around, read, asked questions and in the end, facts, logic and fairness won. Do stick around. :)

@Blackbird1234

I will indeed take all the time I need to find and post what I have seen written against JKR that I deemed insightful, which is what I said in the beginning. I will not post anything else that I didnt say I would, because I didn't say I would. I have a couple of hours of sewing lessons with my MIL this afternoon, so once that's done I'll continue my search and will post what I found to be insightful, with absolutely no hopes or wishes to change anyones mind in the slightest, I'm not here for that.

I’ve only got this far in the thread, but am going to jump in now.

I think the point is NOT that you need to go away and find insightful posts that you’ve read on X amount of platforms showing why you think JKR is transphobic/why the actors are right to stick up for their views etc.

The point is - please take the time to find ACTUAL proof, direct from JKR’s words, that she is transphobic. Because, if you go back to her “essay”, which triggered this daftness, you won’t find anything there. Nor will you find anything since.

And it’s daft to imply that people think the HP stars should give back their earnings. However, they should think very carefully about continuing to take part in projects where they profit from their involvement AFTER they so publicly denounced her. There’s a big difference there.

Just to be clear, from my POV, standing up for the rights of women is NOT transphobic. It is perfectly possible to vehemently do so, while also recognising that additional rights need to be introduced for the trans community - but these should be separate to sex-based rights.

My entire point ended with saying that people do post more than "because". Not that they're correct. Not that they post the truth. But that they do fight their corner and dont just use a one word cop out.

Honestly I don't think I will stick around. I don't expect anyone to "be kind" to me in the slightest but really only one or two posts directed towards me have not been filled with hostility. I'd prefer to be in an environment where I can feel free to debate and learn without feeling somewhat attacked, where I can leave the discussion happy that I've learnt something and enjoyed doing it. If Mumsnet is filled with people who have been here for many years and who get frustrated at discussions like this, then I dont think it's the right place for me, unfortunately. And for the hundredth time, I don't find JKR transphobic.

Regardless, thank you to everyone who took the time to respond to me. If anyone has any recommendations of forums that discuss similar issues, please do pop them below if you can. Thanks everyone!

@Blackbird1234

Miladyberseko - I'm sorry if I'm not being clear. This topic began because the poster NotBadConsidering said that they had never seen anyone anywhere on the internet quote JKRs words and say why they're transphobic, that they have only ever seen an "explanation" of "because". I have seen people give a full explanation of their reasons (not saying that they are correct) and somehow we ended up here. I believe all opinions are valid in the holders mind, but not that they're all equal and truthful - they perhaps are to that person only. A person can wholeheartedly believe in their own opinion, of course, but I dont think that makes it truthful to everyone else, no.

If you can't find these insightful posts, upon googling yesterday, are you able to give a hint of flavour at why they are actually transphobic.

Like this:
JKR said this 'x, y and z' and some people find 'a, b and c' when they read this sentence because [something].

Because all I read yesterday is that JRK said X and because Maya said Y [which she didn't actually say or do] then it means Z. Which is a false premise and if it made such an impact on you to come and tell us all about it, you must remember some of the gist of their arguments?

I will indeed take all the time I need to find and post what I have seen written against JKR that I deemed insightful, which is what I said in the beginning

Part of a healthy debate is being able to say you got something wrong. The above quote is what you said. You haven’t backed this up. You also said you’d post evidence of JKR’s supporters being just as abusive as those who abuse her. You haven’t backed that up either. I found 3 brand new abusive tweets towards her posted within just one random hour. That’s the level of abuse she suffers, one threat of violence every 20 minutes at least and those were just the ones in English I could understand.

You’re not being “attacked” for debating, you kept asserting something, kept asserting you’d post proof of that something, and kept getting replies wanting you to do so and asking why you haven’t. Backing up assertions with evidence is a requirement here so yes, other places that might go happily without that may suit more.

Notbadconsidering - And as my point was that I have seen people post much more than just "because", I stand by what I posted. Insightful doesn't mean truthful. It doesnt mean 100% fact. The posts I added had peoples reasons for thinking what they do, which is what you yourself said you had never seen anywhere on the internet. You all assumed something other than what I was saying, which is also apparent in the fact its still being assumed by posters that I think JKR is transphobic.
My aim was never to hop on here and post a bunch of evidence that you could all refute, it was to have a discussion and hopefully learn something (like I did in my surrogacy thread which proved amazing for me) but everyone pretty much pounced on the JKR "proof" just waiting around to prove me wrong when I don't even hold the same opinions as the screenshots I posted. A few people even said "post the screenshots so that we can refute everything sentence by sentence" and that's not what I'm here for. I feel a good discussion could've been had, but everything stopped at "Show us evidence" and didn't move beyond it, so I find that a pity and ultimately learnt very very little.

You said you would post things you found insightful. Not things that the anonymous posters in those screenshots think are insightful. What do you find insightful about their arguments? It’s not we assumed something other than what you were saying it’s because we read what you were saying.

And you keep ignoring the fact you said you would post evidence of equal abuse. You’re conveniently ignoring the reminders of that.

I think that part of the problem here may be that most of the tra side of the 'debate' is based on feelings.

I don't doubt that there is plenty of sincerity on gender ideology side, but the problem is that those feelings have been used as a reason to change actual government policy, to the detriment of women.

This is why GC's focus on fact.

Milesjuppismybitch - Yes I believe that too and it definitely makes for murky waters between the two sides and I completely understand that makes it difficult to navigate. I do think that feelings have a place in debate as in my opinion, you need to understand the other side in order to progress. I dont deny biological fact but it seems that it stops the conversation in its tracks and doesnt allow it to progress beyond that, which I think is what is needed for real progress towards coming to some sort of solution. I do also believe that there are some very loud voices on both sides who dont have the movements best interests at heart, who also make the entire conversation very difficult and frustrating for those who do want to progress beyond arguments, but I suppose that applies to almost every other subject in the world!