Review of HP reunion in The Guardian…they just can’t help themselves

[OhDear2200]

www.theguardian.com/tv-and-radio/2022/jan/01/harry-potter-20th-anniversary-return-to-hogwarts-review-perilously-close-to-emetic

I guess they at least note her absence. But can’t help say ‘widely considered as transphobic’. Just why? Why say anything.

And you're taking what I've said out of context.

@Blackbird1234

Notbadconsidering - If you want to stop someone from having an untruthful view, you first need to find out why they think their view is truthful and you can only do that with a conversation, probably one that includes feelings. You want them to stop believing the lie, so have a conversation about the wider issue instead of refuting every single sentence. It'd be much more productive to hear them out and refute at the end of the conversation, with both parties hopefully having learned something. I guess, to me, both sides understanding the other side and listening to them fully is an important step. I understand that the lie is the conversation, so then ways to work through that need to be found and stating "that's a lie" constantly clearly isn't working.

You know, I have worked out what this entire business reminds me of.

When someone has been brainwashed by a cult, as it might be the Family Federation for World Peace and Unification, or QAnon, there is very little point in trying to talk with them about it in a reasoned way. It isn't that they won't listen, it is that it appears as if they can't. Deprogramming them is a rather specialised business, and there are people who are expert in it, but their concerned relations have very little chance without help. And anything which is not absolutely positive about their belief makes them recoil from the person who has said whatever it is, and in the case of the church member be pitying about their foolishness in not seeing the error, in the case of QAnon followers unperson and attack. (Look at the way Trump follower Alex Jones went for Trump because Trump dared to say that he thinks the covid vaccines work! He might as well have advocated eating babies.)

So with the belief-system in which it is possible for human beings to change sex -- not gender, sex. Anything which even remotely suggests this might not be a fact is totally unacceptable, anathema, and the person who has voiced it must be punished.

It's not a very pleasant cult.

But your vaccinated/anti-vaccer argument doesn't work unless you accept that the anti-vacc movement is harming all the vaccinated (I suppose you could say that, actually, looking at the big picture).

So women can't meet TRAs in the middle - that means giving up half of women's rights, presumably. So what are we meant to give up? Can we give in on, say, toilets but hang on to changing rooms? Do we have to lose prisons to hold onto women's shelters? Do we let some (who look feminine and don't win too easily) into sports?

There is no middle ground. In ye olden days, when there were few transwomen, women were kind. We tried the middle ground. Look where that got us

I realise you didn't mean "meet in the middle" but you obviously believe there is some way of compromising, and there really isn't.

So at least in the context of JKR, we have established that there is still no evidence that backs up her being 'widely considered as transphobic'.

There is evidence that she is widely considered to be transphobic. It's just there is no actual basis in reality, ie evidence, for that dogma.

TurquoiseBaubles - Nor did I say compromise.

Shedmistress - The point of all of my posts was not to "display evidence of JKR being transphobic" but good on you for jumping on only that and not focusing on the things I actually said. Progress is right around the corner, am I right?

What do you suggest then Blackbird? Either women give up their rights to transactivists or we don't.

So far women have listened and heard all the transactivists' arguments and said "No thank you". Transactivists are (a) not listening, (b) calling women transphobic for trying to talk and (c) riding roughshod over all women's rights as they currently stand - the right to the word "woman" for starters, and also to any and all single sex spaces.

It's not women you should be telling to listen. Women want to keep their rights. Transactivists want to remove them.

@Blackbird1234

TurquoiseBaubles - Nor did I say compromise.

Shedmistress - The point of all of my posts was not to "display evidence of JKR being transphobic" but good on you for jumping on only that and not focusing on the things I actually said. Progress is right around the corner, am I right?

My comment was in response to the original post, I disregarded your posts entirely.

Shedmistress - My feelings about yours from here on out exactly.

TurquoiseBaubles - I'm not making my points again, I've made them enough and you seem to still be missing them and assuming things I haven't said.

I have read your points, and ultimately they boil down to "women should talk to TRAs and explain. And explain again. And keep explaining". That doesn't work, as I've said.

Women used to be kind. Now we've had enough. It should be sufficient for women to say "no". You are arguing, and have throughout this thread, that women shouldn't just say "no" - they should talk, explain, negotiate, educate, etc etc etc. Well no, we're done with that. Women's spaces are for women, not for men who think they are entitled to use them.

I agree Turquoise
The answer is No. Women are allowed to say no. Some people think we aren't, which is a great part of the problem.

TurquoiseBaubles - Alright, then carry on exactly as you have been and in 10 years time things will be the same as they are today. The rape and death threats will continue, the insults and refusal to understand from either side will continue, the frustration.. all of it. It almost seems as if progress isn't what people what.

Of course rape and death threats will continue, the problem is MEN and the fact that they rape and kill women.

Talking to men doesn't stop them assaulting, raping and killing women.

I mean, really? Be nice and hope they don't kill you?

Fuck that shit.

I'm not hanging around waiting for misogynists to come to terms with their inner feels about why and how they hate women.

I am not asking for my rights. I'm fucking insisting on them. I am a human being and I will be counted.

I have read your points, and ultimately they boil down to "women should talk to TRAs and explain. And explain again. And keep explaining".
You seem new to all this Blackbird. Do you realise that for a long time the TRA had a policy of "No Debate" i.e. their stance was - literally - that they expected the world to cave to their every demand without question. We have only got as far as we have because some brave people have refused to kowtow.
It was never women that wouldn't talk, it was the TRA. You are chastising the wrong side.

How am I chastising the wrong side when my words apply to both sides? So you're fine to remain in the exact same place you are now because you refuse to talk to the other side because you think its them who need to change? The other side probably think the exact same thing, so no progress will be made unless there's a change from both sides.

No thank you

I find it astounding that ppl come on here and effectively tell us off for insisting on our own hard fought legal rights to be upheld

I can’t think of any other group protected under equality law where this is the case

And frankly given what TRA have thrown at us already and we’ve still said no, im not sure what they have left

you refuse to talk to the other side because you think its them who need to change?
We are tired of trying to engage with the other side because they never give a straightforward answer. It's like trying to knit fog.
We can define what a woman is; they can't, despite insisting that they are one.

Then as I say, absolutely no progress will be made, the situation as we know it will remain as it is. If you're ok with that then there is no problem.

The idea that people defending JKR and the rights she believes in and stands up for need to be willing to listen slowly and openly to people spout lies in order for progress to be made is so bonkers it’s hard to know what else to say. Put the onus on the people lying to stop lying!

It’s like saying if you want your toddler to stop drawing on the walls with permanent markers you should allow them to continue, let them finish their toddler masterpiece of scribble, and then patiently explain to them afterwards how they might want to use paper next time. Meanwhile, the damage is irreparably done to your walls and the toddler thinks they’re Vincent fucking Van Gogh.

No thank you.

Ok so you don't like my opinion and you're perfectly entitled to that, no hard feelings whatsoever. But then I'm genuinely curious (not in a snippy way, but genuinely) as to how you think progress can be made if you don't want to engage with them? 100% genuine question.

I actually think we've made quite a bit of progress since we stopped being so polite and accommodating and pretending we hadn't noticed what was happening in front of our own eyes.

Floisme - Fair enough, but how do you see that continuing? If you keep the same strategy you have now, do you see that as enabling you to continue progress?

@Floisme

I actually think we've made quite a bit of progress since we stopped being so polite and accommodating and pretending we hadn't noticed what was happening in front of our own eyes.

I agree. We are in this position because of how people’s lies and crazy ideas were allowed to go unchallenged. Since those lies have been clamped down on there has been significant progress, the level of support and turning of the tide with more and more people willing to say “thank god, I thought it was only me who thought that was bullshit and lies, it’s good to see I’m not alone”. It would be a backward step to allow space for those lies to propagate again.