People behind Wild Womyn Workshop receive death threats

[Needmoresleep]

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10272223/Lesbian-businesswoman-designs-feminist-t-shirts-worn-J-K-Rowling-receives-death-threats.html

This is not acceptable. I like that the DM includes a link to their website at the end of the article. Not sure the DM readership is their target market, but a nice touch.

Go witches go...

This is what makes me think that mysogynist activists in the guise of pro-trans are infiltrating systems and muddying the waters with their anti-women arguments.

Thanks for listening and thinking and changing your views on the basis of new evidence, Baffledbunny. If only transactivists would do the same.

But I think you’re still being too kind, in believing that the misogyny comes from infiltrators, rather than trans people themselves.

With the huge increase in numbers of people saying they’re trans or non-binary, there’s a much wider spectrum now. But the number of old-style transsexuals — males who were so convinced of being female that they had extensive surgery, including genital surgery — remains very small. Even Stonewall says the vast majority of transwomen keep their male genitals intact.

@baffledbunny as you seem to be genuinely trying to learn more about the debate (believe me, we get many posters who are not here to find out more!), I would suggest this thread as a good resource (particularly Datun's post on page 1) - www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3145470-Break-it-down-for-me

I started from where you are - it was JKR's essay which made me start to really look into what is going on.

And also, in terms of the 'transwomen are men' tshirt - strictly speaking, they are. Women have in the past been courteous enough to use preferred pronouns/names etc, ignoring that fact.

But then we were told that literally TWAW. Then preferred pronouns were mandated. Women had to fight court cases to establish the fact that the human species has two sexes as a 'protected belief' in order to avoid being forced out of employment. The expected courtesy is now enforced, with threats of violence.

If you walk into Lush, the soap shop, wearing a tshirt which states the literal dictionary definition of woman, you will be asked to leave. That is seen as perfectly acceptable. So I can't get behind the outrage at this tshirt.

@MargaritaPie

Are the Daily Mail Gender Critical? Every article they make on the topic is always in support of Gender Critical. So are almost all the comments.

I'd say they pride themselves on seeing through the woke crap.

I'd say they pride themselves on seeing through the woke crap.

Absolutely, I'm very impressed by the Daily Mail and am glad they are standing up for women - they seem to be getting it right on many subjects lately.

[quote IndigoToo]@baffledbunny - male rapists who identify as women are already being housed in the female estate/prison. Females are already being forced to share cells with them, shower with them, etc. Females have already been assaulted (sexually and physically) by them, and have spoken of their desperation and despair at being locked in with a male with intact genitalia (who identifies as a woman).[/quote]
That's frigging terrible. I'm shocked that this is happening, and also the fact that people can id themselves as a male without having to provide any proof of their condition. This is brand new information for me really so I guess I'm still working my way though these issues to figure out where I stand on things personally.

(Sorry been out all day so hoping to be able to respond to people now)

Perhaps this would help baffled.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4442652-Trans-prisoners-switch-gender-again-once-freed-from-women-s-units

@Bordois

I'd have thought a lesbian would be interested in promoting safe spaces for trans women to exist

Why do you think lesbians should be interested in this?

I guess I kind of threw that comment out there even though I know it probably came across as judgemental a bit. The only reason being that lesbians have largely been seen as the "outsiders" of society and trans people even more so, so I guess I was thinking naively they'd help them fight their corner.

@R0semary
;
Fair comment. I guess that's true if you choose to view trans women as men, but if you don't view TW as men then it would be women supporting women.

But I do see your point on this. I guess I am still trying to decide on where I stand on this issue really.

@ArabellaScott

Also how can anyone be 'born in the wrong body'?

What does that actually mean?

When I was a teenager I read a book called Last Exit to Brooklyn which is a sad novel focusing on the impact of poverty on a working class community living by the docks in brooklyn in the 1950s. I don't remember much of it tbh but I remember there were some horrible bits in there focusing on rape which has made me not want to read it again. However I do vividly remember there was a small chapter focusing on this man who was a transvestite (not sure if this term is ok these days) and his desparate loneliness living in this macho male-dominated community. I can't remember the details of the story but he had a very visceral fear of going outside in case of homophobic attack, which meant he had become largely agoraphobic, and he knew that his neighbours had found out that he liked wearing blue eyeshadow etc and viewed him as a pervert or dangerous.

Anyway, it just left me with an overriding sympathy for transpeople and their experiences and I've read a few articles over the years about young people who feel they are born in the wrong body. It's not something I know much of but often they know from childhood that they don't feel right, and prefer to be known by a different name or wear clothes of their preferred gender. I don't think it's something people just make up (at least "genuine" transgender people), especially if it's something you feel from childhood. I can't say I understand it as I'm a cis female and happy to be so but I think it's something you can't help, much like your own sexuality, or hair or skin colour. I can imagine the distress it could cause someone to feel like this.

Not much of an answer but I guess to get a real answer you'd need to speak to a person who feels like this.

The only reason being that lesbians have largely been seen as the "outsiders" of society and trans people even more so, so I guess I was thinking naively they'd help them fight their corner.

But fighting their corner requires lesbians to give up being same sex attracted and accept penis. It requires women to give up their rights to sex segregated space in toilets, changing rooms, sport, prison's. It's about giving up their safety and removing their rights. This isn't fighting someone's corner. It's self destruction at the request of someone else who wants to remove what you have.

Sounds like a good book though.

Baffled

As a child I did feel all wrong
Hated girlie clothes
Wanted to be called David
It was intense

But now as an adult -I was reacting to stereotypes being enforced , to bullying as a result of not being normal ( feminine) , to the distress of s changing body and the sexual attention that resulted

This went on for many many years

Now , I realise i am female, which doesn't say much about me

and people who believe in gender as a positive thing are the sort of people who tried to change me, who hated and feared me

I do believe there are sone who will never come to that acceptance , but I think it's a healthier way of living than hormones surgery and trying to pass

Which is why I think that should be a last resort not the standard route

It's why I think the whole narrative needs to change , to be more accepting of none conforming , more support for the mental health and less focus on the physical

it just left me with an overriding sympathy for transpeople and their experiences

I think this is the thing though. It is very easy to instinctively empathise with such a tale. It is very easy to picture yourself in that situation.

The character you describe is able bodied, I always wonder how those with physical disabilities feel at the Born in the Wrong Body narrative. Must be really fucking insulting if you are born with, say cerebral palsy.

Well I've just bought some of Wyld Womyn's products so ironically the transactivist haters are actually helping her grow her business and shine light on the cause, due to their threats which got in the DM.

Quite the just dessert I think.

And I have mentioned this on here too, I am like midge I desperately wanted to be a boy. Hated being a girl. If I’d been sold the Stonewall narrative, I’ve have totally transitioned, probably somewhere between the ages of 7 and 11. (and had been absolutely certain I didn’t want to be a girl from my very earliest memories)

I’d have been dead wrong though. Now I’m in my 50s I can see it was all just a visceral reaction to shit stereotypes.

[quote Waitwhat23]@baffledbunny as you seem to be genuinely trying to learn more about the debate (believe me, we get many posters who are not here to find out more!), I would suggest this thread as a good resource (particularly Datun's post on page 1) - www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3145470-Break-it-down-for-me

I started from where you are - it was JKR's essay which made me start to really look into what is going on.[/quote]
Hi thanks for the link, will def watch. Yes am genuinely trying to learn more as its not a topic I know too much about.. I'm finding MN a bit of fresh air to be honest as I am a feminist and it's hard to find places to discuss these issues without getting shouted down!

Indeed, I got a ban warning on reddit for merely asking why TWAW. There's limited places online now to discuss GC openly.

baffledbunny that sounds like a sad story indeed. For sure trans people have had and continue to have many struggles and face adversity and even discrimination. It's quite right that everyone should be supported to live as they wish, so long as it's not impinging on the rights of others.

The problems some feminists have with the legal fiction that anyone can change sex, which has been adopted by various bodies and organisations, is that it threatens to encroach upon or even effectively remove the rights of women - who also have the right to live life free of harassment and fear.

Lesbians in particular have found themselves in a difficult position, with some being pressured to accept transwomen in their 'dating pool' or risk being labelled transphobic.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-57853385

It's a big subject, I don't want to overwhelm you. But I suggest reading up on various things on this board if you're interested - and feel free to ask questions.

I find the idea of any male thinking they can be a woman (whatever their personal issues) quite offensive.