People behind Wild Womyn Workshop receive death threats

[Needmoresleep]

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10272223/Lesbian-businesswoman-designs-feminist-t-shirts-worn-J-K-Rowling-receives-death-threats.html

This is not acceptable. I like that the DM includes a link to their website at the end of the article. Not sure the DM readership is their target market, but a nice touch.

Go witches go...

What an amazing woman Angela Wild is. I can't imagine what she has been going through with all that high level abuse, it must be very scary. I've just put an order in for some of her fantastic products.
Women won't shut up and be told what they can and can't do and I'm grateful for her in making a stand despite the risks.

Wonderful quote on Wild Womyn's Workshop Facebook page to welcome
in 2022: "this year is the year we break down the madness brick by brick!"

@Grumpyosaurus

The analogy is spot on. The n-word is a slur. It is a term used to insult and demean, rather than just describe. So is terf.

As for feminism... Honestly, I'm not sure if you lack the capacity to understand or are so convinced of your virtue that you can't get your head around another POV, but feminism is about women. That is, the old fashioned XX type. The type repressed and abused for millennia because (get this) they are the ones who have the babies which puts them at a massive physical disadvantage.

Women, due to their biology, were shat on from a great height for centuries. Men wanted to control reproduction, so they needed to control women. They were, on average, significantly bigger and stronger (this is because of a hormone called testosterone, which you may have heard of), so they were well able to control the baby-makers, and in many places they still do. Women got a bit sick of not being able to own proper, or vote, or earn the same as men for the same work, hence feminism. Hence the rejection of gender roles and stereotypes, which just serves to keep us in our (very unequal) place.

Feminism, the sort I ascribe to, is about women, not people who were once men. It's about the rejection of gender, while at the same time acknowledging that there are real differences between men and women. Trans rights are not the same as feminism. I can believe that feminism is about actual, natal women, and still be 100% in favour of trans people having the same rights that we all have, provided (and this is the kicker) that doesn't result in women being, yet again, shat on from a great height, and losing oh, dunno, the right to be safe if incarcerated, or to compete fairly in sports.

I hope that's clear.

V clear. Thanks.

REgarding her slogans from the article . I agree with these two:
'Protect women-only spaces' and 'Female biology is not bigotry'

But not with this: 'Trans women are men', I think this is offensive.

I think if a trans person wants to identify as a woman or a man they should be allowed to do so, and this should be respected.

I'd have thought a lesbian would be interested in promoting safe spaces for trans women to exist, not creating an atmosphere of judgement. I don't agree with the attacks on her though, which is out of order.

@CompleteGinasaur

Personally I'm absolutely fine with TERF being glamourised and normalised. I haven't been glamourous since the 90's.

@baffledbunny

REgarding her slogans from the article . I agree with these two: 'Protect women-only spaces' and 'Female biology is not bigotry'

But not with this: 'Trans women are men', I think this is offensive.

I think if a trans person wants to identify as a woman or a man they should be allowed to do so, and this should be respected.

I'd have thought a lesbian would be interested in promoting safe spaces for trans women to exist, not creating an atmosphere of judgement. I don't agree with the attacks on her though, which is out of order.

You think any male, even a rapist, can 'identify' as a woman and should therefore be entitled to be housed in a woman's prison? Or take part in women's sport? Or attend a group specifically for women rape survivors? Because of how he 'identifies'?

But not with this: 'Trans women are men', I think this is offensive.

Why do you dislike men so much that you find being one offensive? Pointing out someone is a man is a biological fact, not a value judgement.

But not with this: 'Trans women are men', I think this is offensive.

I look at this and wonder just how much language has been twisted. How much society has gone along with the detachment of woman and man from their centuries old and common usage.

Only men can be transwomen 🤷🏻‍♀️

If I, (a woman) identified as a transwoman I'd be called all sorts of names...

I'd have thought a lesbian would be interested in promoting safe spaces for trans women to exist

Why do you think lesbians should be interested in this?

@baffledbunny

REgarding her slogans from the article . I agree with these two: 'Protect women-only spaces' and 'Female biology is not bigotry'

But not with this: 'Trans women are men', I think this is offensive.

I think if a trans person wants to identify as a woman or a man they should be allowed to do so, and this should be respected.

I'd have thought a lesbian would be interested in promoting safe spaces for trans women to exist, not creating an atmosphere of judgement. I don't agree with the attacks on her though, which is out of order.

isn't the 'be kind' knot people tie themselves in interesting?

1. women have distinct bodies from men

2. if a man wants to be a woman it's offensive not to go along with that though

3. women should provide service to men at all times - lesbians should be promoting safe spaces for men

the cognitive dissonance must be exhausting

I'd have thought a lesbian would be interested in promoting safe spaces for trans women to exist, not creating an atmosphere of judgement

Oh you are so funny @baffledbunny. OF COURSE lesbians should be centring men in everything they do and validating their feelings.

It’s not up to MEN to make male spaces safe for all men, however they identify. It’s up to woman, particularly lesbians, to act as human shields and support humans.

It’s not as if lesbians as entitled to any human rights of their own .

People really are uncomfortable with women standing for women aren’t they?

@baffledbunny

REgarding her slogans from the article . I agree with these two: 'Protect women-only spaces' and 'Female biology is not bigotry'

But not with this: 'Trans women are men', I think this is offensive.

I think if a trans person wants to identify as a woman or a man they should be allowed to do so, and this should be respected.

I'd have thought a lesbian would be interested in promoting safe spaces for trans women to exist, not creating an atmosphere of judgement. I don't agree with the attacks on her though, which is out of order.

How do you protect women-only spaces if you have to allow and respect a man who identifies as a woman?

The minute you allow any man into a woman only-space it ceases to be a woman only space.

Why should a lesbian be promoting safe spaces for transwomen? Transwoman are men, it's impossible to be a transwoman otherwise, it's not a judgement is just plain, cold, hard fact. Why aren't transwomen promoting and lobbying for their own, separate safe spaces, why are you expecting women and lesbian women in particular to do it for them?

I'd have thought a lesbian would be interested in promoting safe spaces for trans women to exist

Why?

I find it far more offensive that so little respect is given to the reality of being a woman - particularly the impact of our biology, but also female socialisation and growing up having to navigate the male gaze - some people now believe it can be reduced to some kind of vague undefinable “essence” that anyone can identify with having.

Whether you agree with her views or you find them offensive, why isn’t everyone on all sides of this saying that it’s never acceptable to send death threats or to threaten rape or physical violence?

@WhatScratch

Whether you agree with her views or you find them offensive, why isn’t everyone on all sides of this saying that it’s never acceptable to send death threats or to threaten rape or physical violence?

Because when these vile threats are sent to unapologetic feminists and lesbians its different for "reasons"

At most you get the mealy mouthed “of course threats are wrong but…” (there’s an example of exactly that on this thread) which always reminds me of Jon Snow’s very accurate comment in GOT that “everything before the ‘but’ is horse shit”, because it’s quite clear the person saying it thinks the recipient of the threats somehow brought it upon themselves…which proves they think threats are a justifiable response in some situations, rather than automatically reprehensible and wrong no matter what.

Sorry I can't seem to quote everyone so just replying like this:

@ArabellaScott: This is not what I said. I wasn't talking in terms of crime. I was talking in terms of feelings of gender dysphoria. But if it comes to a criminal act then I'd hope that the police or prosecution would do their bit in investigating this and not just taking the rapist's word for it. After all if he was an illegal immigrant they wouldn;t just take his word for it! Anyway I know this sounds naive now that Police Scotland have said they will not do this, and therefore there is a real possibility that a male rapist (identifying as a female) will end up in housed with female prisoners which is incredibly worrying and wrong. This is what makes me think that mysogynist activists in the guise of pro-trans are infiltrating systems and muddying the waters with their anti-women arguments.

In another thread someone posted the JK Rowling article which I found really interesting. The fact that, according to her article, "he current explosion of trans activism is urging a removal of almost all the robust systems through which candidates for sex reassignment were once required to pass." is deeply worrying. This is something I didn't know was happening, I'd have thought that changing gender is something people wouldn't enter into lightly, so there should be a trail of evidence to "prove" that someone is identifying as another gender. But this looks like not to be the case.

I do think gender dysphoria should be looked at separately from crime though, there are people with real feelings of not being born in the right bodies - and I have every sympathy for their predicament. That's why I found that slogan offensive. It's not fair to just tar everyone with the potentially criminal brush just because some will people will commit crimes (as they do in every area of life).

@baffledbunny - male rapists who identify as women are already being housed in the female estate/prison. Females are already being forced to share cells with them, shower with them, etc. Females have already been assaulted (sexually and physically) by them, and have spoken of their desperation and despair at being locked in with a male with intact genitalia (who identifies as a woman).

@OnlyTheTitosaurusOfTheIceberg

But not with this: 'Trans women are men', I think this is offensive.

Why do you dislike men so much that you find being one offensive? Pointing out someone is a man is a biological fact, not a value judgement.

Um, I don't think that's what I said? I don't dislike men! It's got nothing to do with men who want to identify as men. It doesn't impact on them at all. But lots of trans people are in "transition" - ie they are going through a process, whether they are experiencing feelings of gender dysphoria, to whether they are in the process of undergoing surgeries, taking hormones etc. To me a slogan like that is quite rude and dismissive towards a group of people who may legitimately feel they are born in the wrong bodies.

This is not talking about crimes though, as to me that's a slightly separate issue and should be treated as such.

baffledbunny but while you’re extending sympathy to a tiny minority of men with gender dysphoria by espousing TWAW, you’re a) shitting all over the far greater numbers of women who find it offensive - why don’t our feelings matter? - and b) lying to those men by pretending you buy into their alternative version of reality. Would you tell someone with anorexia that yeah, they are fat and you agree they should be restricting their food intake? If not, why not? Why is the truth ‘offensive’ to people suffering from one form of body dysmorphia but not another? How can feeding someone lies that they can become something they never can, be anything other than cruel?

baffled I understand you want to be nice, and kind. But your arguments don't actually work when translated into the real world.

If a man can become a woman by saying he is one, (by 'identifying as a woman') then we end up where we are now. We already have male sex offenders in women's prisons. Women have already been sexually assaulted by males in women's prisons. Crime is, as you note, part of life. It would be great if we could predict who among a population are going to commit a crime, but of course we can't.

lots of trans people are in "transition" - ie they are going through a process, whether they are experiencing feelings of gender dysphoria, to whether they are in the process of undergoing surgeries, taking hormones etc.

That's not how 'self ID' works. All that is required to become a woman is to 'identify' as one. That's how Police Scotland, the MoJ and the NHS now operate.

No process necessary. No surgery, no hormones, nothing. Just a declaration. That's what 'self ID' means.

Also how can anyone be 'born in the wrong body'?

What does that actually mean?