Common courtesy, a non-malicious question from a transgender person

[WhiteFlagHeldAloft]

Hello,

I wanted to ask a question that perhaps some of you may have an answer for. This is not intended to be malicious in any way, or to incite a flame war.

I am another person among many who identifies as transgender. My chromosomes are XY, I lived out my childhood and adolescence as a boy and began taking estrogen and testosterone suppressors at age 18. I identify as a woman and ask that others respect me in that identity. I am in a relationship with a woman who identifies as a lesbian, she was born and has lived her entire life as a woman.

I feel the need to clarify who I am before asking my question as the answer to this question is very relevant to me. I rarely leave me and my partners home, and without fail avoid any kind of sex-segregated environment as much as I can. I work from home, so don't have to do much there. I am not a part of any activism. I am not a vocal member of any kind of community, and avoid social media like a plague ridden rat. I have only ever engaged in sexual contact with my present partner, and for fear that I would not be accepted by her I was never the one to initiate such contact. I understand and uphold consent as a universal necessity, particularly as I have experienced sexual violence myself as an adult.

Alright, that's me. There's a lot more to me than that, but for the purposes of the topic at hand I feel its relevant to state the above.

Why is it okay to not be respectful of my wishes with regards to my identity and how am I spoken to? Why is a simple request regarding language when talking to me such an unreasonable demand? Is it not a common courtesy to be respectful towards someone who is being respectful of you? Whenever I mention that I am transgender and was not born a woman, a lot of gender critical people i encounter immediately start referring to me as a man even when they had been referring to me as a woman before. Over the years and pre pandemic I used to occasionally frequent LGBT spaces and still frequent some private LGBT groups online.

I'm not claiming anything about my biology or genetics or trying to argue that ive somehow changed my genetic makeup. I'm upfront about who I am. I have no recourse in situations where someone just decides to remind me in every sentence of how I was born. It might seem stupid, trivial, ludicrous even that it hurts me but it does. I am very aware of how I was born. I am very aware that I am different. I hate everything about how I was born. To be reminded of that constantly, sometimes even aggressively is mentally and emotionally exhausting. I don't understand why, its not as though its so hard to refer to me respectfully. You don't even have to agree with me, you can think I'm crazy or insane or delusional or whatever else. But at the end of the day its still a slight change in how you speak to me. Benign, and inconsequential to you maybe but to me it isn't.

Theres so much hatred in this discussion I feel like its become so polarized to that point that the lives of unrelated individual people are being dragged through the mud for no reason. I don't want to change your opinions on my identity or convince you of anything. I dont want to hurt anyone or make anyone uncomfortable. I just want to be allowed to exist and engage with other people who will respect me. That's all.

So, to reiterate, why is it okay to just outright not afford me common courtesy? Why is it encouraged, even endorsed, by many gender critical people to not give me that respect? I havent done anything to gender critical people. Im not even involved in any kind of activism or social media. I've been dragged into this unwillingly. I just want to live my life and feel free to frequent LGBT spaces where I won't be harassed by virtue of my very existence and nothing at all to do with the content of my character.

OP never came back.
Trans can't have a 'lived experience' of being a woman, because they haven't lived as a woman. What is a woman? What do you think growing up as a woman entails? I've yet to see a good description on MN. If you had problems growing up, struggled with periods, bled and had blood all over the bed, worried about getting home or walking home from a party, pregnancy, menopause and HRT. Or if not those parts, other women would describe bits of being a woman that a person born a man could not comprehend.

Is there a shared trans experience of living?

Given that trans is such an umbrella term for so many things is it even possible to have a shared experience of trans?

When a man walks in, the atmosphere changes completely. Guards go up. Conversation changes. Unfortunately this doesn’t change when the man identifies as a woman. Again it’s unfair to vilify women for needing these spaces.

This is so true. And, to be fair I think the reverse is too. I’ve felt that unease in the air when I’ve found myself joining a group of men - unease for the men that is. And I admit I can’t help thinking on occasions that it’s because they are having some sexist/perverted conversation that they realise is not acceptable in front of a woman.

Haven't RTT but surely the reason for the issue is that no-one has a problem with you per se, OP. But the issue isn't with you, it's nothing personal, it's to do with classes or categories in law.

If we accept that you as a TW are a woman, that doesn't just impact you. That changes the definition of the entire category of women - as suddenly now it can include people born male, with a penis etc. That has HUGE REPERCUSSIONS for the definition of women in law and our legal rights.

So I get that on a personal level, it seems reasonable to say 'Why can't you just be nice to me, I'm not harming anyone.'

The problem is that although you absolutely don't mean to hurt anyone, you could be inadvertently hurting women by contributing to a redefinition of our legal category. Which is what provides (some measure of) protection to all women.

@xxyzz amen!

Also, I wonder if the OP realises that this is just the latest in a long, long line of identical threads posted by transwomen.

Its striking how similar they are isn't it?

When a man walks in, the atmosphere changes completely. Guards go up. Conversation changes. Unfortunately this doesn’t change when the man identifies as a woman. Again it’s unfair to vilify women for needing these spaces.

Yes - why exactly is it so terrible to want a space or group for biological women only? Plenty of groups are for a particular category of person, including trans groups.

I’m being asked to give up women-only places, groups and experiences on the basis of a lie - that a male is a woman. Not only is that not true, it actually actively ruins the vibe of a female only group because as a male that person doesn’t have the biological experiences that the women share and understand.

And it’s not just that the male/a in the group change it - it also means in the current climate you can’t talk about those women-only things for fear of upsetting or causing the rage of the male who doesn’t share them, because then you’re “excluding`’ the non-female “woman” and now it’s all about them feeling important and feminine so we can’t discuss menstruation or boobs or sex and have a funny female time bonding over what we share.

It’s completely barking and yet this is why we’re having that important female experience taken away.

And like PP I also understand men wanting to have their male only bonding. Why shouldn’t they?

As we have shared our women only spaces with trans women for a long time, mostly without noticing

"Without noticing" I often wonder if people like you know exactly what you are supporting when you repeat the tired old mantra that "trans women are women", because it literally does mean accepting any male at all into a female space if he declares himself to feel womanly.

With toilets I’d like to point out that if I see a male in the ladies, I know that he has already been arrogant enough to have stepped over the threshold, it’s antagonistic, he’s already purposefully broken a barrier. I don’t start fights with with antagonistic people, no woman would in an enclosed space with a man. Our silence is not acceptance.

YY, perfectly put.

I know I posted a Ben Shapiro video recently too, but here is another one. I'm just discovering this guy on YouTube and working my way through his videos. There's a LOT I agree with.
This explains my feelings perfectly OP (if you ever come back!).
I would be polite to you as I would to anyone I encounter, but I will not be made to indulge in someone else's belief.

Yeah here’s your screenshot. I’ll admit it, I won’t use ‘she’ or ‘her’ for a biological male because it’s inaccurate and it’s compelled speech. I also refuse to call women who claim to have male identities ‘he’ or ‘him’. And I refuse to use plural pronouns for individuals. Sorry, not sorry.

Common courtesy works both ways, op. Don’t try to police my language. You don’t get to describe my reality.

I am not GC myself but have two GC friends who regularly miss-gender trans people deliberately, so it definitely happens. And it happens online all. the. time.
OP - it is not ok, it shouldn't happen and I'm so sorry you even have to post this. I point this disrespect out to my friends regularly.
Sending you much love and support - woman to woman x

I should clarify I don't agree with EVERYTHING this guy stands for, but on this issue, I surely do.

It may be that we share spaces with transwoman without realising - we usually focus on what we're doing ourselves in bathrooms and changing rooms to poke our nose into anyone else.
And many transwomen don't stand out, and wouldn't want to.
But that doesn't mean we shouldn't fight for our single sex spaces, does it? Otherwise it gives a signal to some transwomen and men who are wishing to exploit that open opportunity to exhibit, abuse and harass women and girls when they're in a vulnerable position - in a hospital ward, changing room, spa, sauna, refuge.

Many transwomen wouldn't dream of taking advantage and want to get on with their lives, unassuming and quietly, but some, and many men, would relish being able to take advantage, as is regularly demonstrated.

The law is comprehensive against harassment, bullying, hate crime, plus we have same s x marriage and the GRC.

Pushing pushing pushing only elicits a pushback force if equal measure, does not consider the pitfalls, and does not win hearts and minds & support. That needs to happen if the bulk of society is to learn to treat all types of people with courtesy and respect. Respect has to be earned, and the TRAs are in danger of increasing prejudice, while they try to bully everyone into submission.

@Ereshkigalangcleg I would know a trans woman at twenty paces.

I think pronouns are bullshit, I think sex is immutable and I don't believe TWAW or could ever be. But in RL I would call a trans woman she, out of courtesy, and do,.all the time, about the trans women I know in RL.

Discussing what you really think on a message board is not the same as being courteous in RL as a kindness or a convention. And the only downright rudeness I see comes from the TRAs, on twitter, telling everyon to stfu, die, get raped etc.

You are being disingenuous to suggest otherwise.

And also, I don't see "thread after thread' on here of people refusing to use trans people's pronouns, most people feel forced to in RL, even though they think it's BS. The debate I see about pronoun usage is about people refusing to state their (obvious) pronouns for themself and feeling aggrieved at people attempting to force them to, mainly in the workplace, when they think it's BS and it reflects a belief system they don't subscribe to and, I might add, is harmful to professional women.

Id be happy to use pronouns you wanted and refer to you as a trans woman. The pronoun side of things I would join in with in the same way I hold hands while religious friends say grace: to be polite and respectful. There's a line though. I wouldnt say grace myself and I wouldn't like it if using preferred pronouns were taken to mean I actually believed you were a woman. I would be making a concession to allow for your strongly held belief. The only reason to be anti-pronoun is if it assumed to mean we are converted, rather than polite. It's a white lie vs the feeling of false testimony.

And then confidently declares that their trans status has no impact on their competitiveness.

Well they are right there. They win because they are male. Being trans didn't make them swim any faster than any other male.

The only difference that being trans makes is the fact that they were permitted to cheat enter the wrong category in the first place.

[quote MargaritaPie]There was also a pronoun thread just yesterday

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4434565-what-are-your-pronouns-best-response-for-a-14-yo[/quote]
Which had nothing whatsoever to do with refusing to use someone's adopted pronouns.

As you well know.

Its also very telling that Lia Thomas has said that they didn't train as hard as they used to.

I rarely leave me and my partners home, and without fail avoid any kind of sex-segregated environment as much as I can. I work from home, so don't have to do much there. I am not a part of any activism. I am not a vocal member of any kind of community, and avoid social media like a plague ridden rat

where are you meeting these people then ?

OP, I'm struggling to think of a situation whereby we would be talking together & your preferred pronouns would be a part of that?
I'd refer to you, in conversation, by your name.
I'm also struggling to understand why, if I were discussing you, in your absence, why you would be aware of which pronouns I used to refer to you?
I would treat you with the same level of courtesy I treat everyone else.
But, I don't think it's "couteous" to actively participate in anyone's ideology.

@Babdoc

I think you are entitled to view yourself in whatever way you want, even when that is at odds with reality. But you cannot expect that other people will be willing to deny reality in order to accommodate your belief. Maybe a religious analogy will help? As a Christian, I believe that Jesus was the human incarnation of God. But I cannot insist that atheists, Muslims etc all agree, and pray alongside me, or attend my church. The more aggressive atheists can be quite rude with remarks about “sky fairies” and “imaginary friends”, but they have every right to say such things, even if I don’t like them. Nobody has the right to impose their beliefs on others, or compel the speech of others to suit themselves.

This is such a piss poor analogy. You're acting like someone who is trans is a bloody Avon rep for choosing an alternative gender. The correct analogy would be, in your case, that a Christian wouldn't demand someone who subscribes to Islam to call their god "God". You treat people of different faiths with respect - you accept that you do not understand their beliefs but respect their wishes. This is the same with gender pronouns. You may not "get it", but someone who is a nice person will use the preferred pronouns anyway.

This is coming from a cisgendered straight woman who understands basic empathy and respect.

This is coming from a cisgendered straight woman who understands basic empathy and respect.

What's in it for women? Where is the empathy and respect for their spaces, their name, their category?