Common courtesy, a non-malicious question from a transgender person

[WhiteFlagHeldAloft]

Hello,

I wanted to ask a question that perhaps some of you may have an answer for. This is not intended to be malicious in any way, or to incite a flame war.

I am another person among many who identifies as transgender. My chromosomes are XY, I lived out my childhood and adolescence as a boy and began taking estrogen and testosterone suppressors at age 18. I identify as a woman and ask that others respect me in that identity. I am in a relationship with a woman who identifies as a lesbian, she was born and has lived her entire life as a woman.

I feel the need to clarify who I am before asking my question as the answer to this question is very relevant to me. I rarely leave me and my partners home, and without fail avoid any kind of sex-segregated environment as much as I can. I work from home, so don't have to do much there. I am not a part of any activism. I am not a vocal member of any kind of community, and avoid social media like a plague ridden rat. I have only ever engaged in sexual contact with my present partner, and for fear that I would not be accepted by her I was never the one to initiate such contact. I understand and uphold consent as a universal necessity, particularly as I have experienced sexual violence myself as an adult.

Alright, that's me. There's a lot more to me than that, but for the purposes of the topic at hand I feel its relevant to state the above.

Why is it okay to not be respectful of my wishes with regards to my identity and how am I spoken to? Why is a simple request regarding language when talking to me such an unreasonable demand? Is it not a common courtesy to be respectful towards someone who is being respectful of you? Whenever I mention that I am transgender and was not born a woman, a lot of gender critical people i encounter immediately start referring to me as a man even when they had been referring to me as a woman before. Over the years and pre pandemic I used to occasionally frequent LGBT spaces and still frequent some private LGBT groups online.

I'm not claiming anything about my biology or genetics or trying to argue that ive somehow changed my genetic makeup. I'm upfront about who I am. I have no recourse in situations where someone just decides to remind me in every sentence of how I was born. It might seem stupid, trivial, ludicrous even that it hurts me but it does. I am very aware of how I was born. I am very aware that I am different. I hate everything about how I was born. To be reminded of that constantly, sometimes even aggressively is mentally and emotionally exhausting. I don't understand why, its not as though its so hard to refer to me respectfully. You don't even have to agree with me, you can think I'm crazy or insane or delusional or whatever else. But at the end of the day its still a slight change in how you speak to me. Benign, and inconsequential to you maybe but to me it isn't.

Theres so much hatred in this discussion I feel like its become so polarized to that point that the lives of unrelated individual people are being dragged through the mud for no reason. I don't want to change your opinions on my identity or convince you of anything. I dont want to hurt anyone or make anyone uncomfortable. I just want to be allowed to exist and engage with other people who will respect me. That's all.

So, to reiterate, why is it okay to just outright not afford me common courtesy? Why is it encouraged, even endorsed, by many gender critical people to not give me that respect? I havent done anything to gender critical people. Im not even involved in any kind of activism or social media. I've been dragged into this unwillingly. I just want to live my life and feel free to frequent LGBT spaces where I won't be harassed by virtue of my very existence and nothing at all to do with the content of my character.

I’m happy to use preferred pronouns as long I’m also treated with respect for my beliefs.

By the way, lesbians do not identify as lesbians. This was the whole issue and gays in the early 70s etc. It is about sex and who they fancy. They don’t identify as fancying women. That is very homophobic.

I see gif Op has made one post and disappeared.

Also you are not in a lesbian relationship. That is so homophobic to say that. Your sexes are male and female and being gay is about sex not gender or feelings.

If you are reading the responses here @WhiteFlagHeldAloft then I would urge you to get help for your anxiety. I suffered from agoraphobia for many years from my late teens to late twenties - not leaving the house alone etc. and I wondered if that was just part of who I was, but I overcame it. It is possible.

I think one aspect of tackling anxiety is realising that although it feels like you are in a bright spotlight and worry about what other people think of you, they are:

1. Rarely thinking about you
2. Mostly not critical of you when they do think of you
3. That if they are judgemental of you, it isn't really about you and isn't important.
4. You can't control what other people think about you.

If you are a kind and respectful person then people will almost always be kind and respectful back.

Just because someone thinks you are wrong, doesn't mean they don't want you to exist or that you haven't the right to life your life differently from how they think they would in your shoes.

As for my gender critical opinions, let me put it like this. I am an atheist. I respect your right to be a Christian, Jew, Muslim, Hindu or any other faith. At a public event if a prayer is said, I am quiet and bow my head out of respect for the believers praying. But I wouldn't recite the catechism or pretend to believe or follow the doctrine of a faith I didn't hold.

There's nothing in it for women. Unless of we are including things like:

Activists won't need to report them to their employers for failing to toe the line. (Maya, Kathleen)

Activists won't use the police as the long arm of their woke security, as long as women toe the line. Behave yourself ladies and you'll get to spend Christmas with your kiddies. Step out of line and expect your punishment to be the long drawn out process, hitting you financially, your reputation. (Marian, Ceri, Posie)

Behave yourselves and activists won't post publicly how best they think you should be shamed, lose your house, livelihood, family, friends, be raped, and even die...let's never forget the mocking dancing Halloween skeleton. (The beautiful Magdalen ) also applies to JKR with the additional attempt to separate her from her work, stand outside her home and dox her, enough hate mail to paper her house with.

Behave yourselves ladies otherwise you might end up getting thumped by a fragile 6 foot muscled marginalised man. (Maria)

Dare complain about this ladies and see your witness statements pretty much redacted in full, and your trips abroad cancelled, doxed, made to feel unsafe, (Caroline). There's no justice for you.

Of course I have missed out many other names, really there are so many though that I'd be here all day. Some I have deliberately not mentioned as bringing their names back into the public forum would not be good for their well-being.

@JellySaurus

You probably meant to say the badge of badge of a Good Person who does as they're told. Please be more careful next time.

In fact in this case I think Girl is correct. There is only one sex that is required to cater for the feelings of the other at all times.

‘We're not one huge monolith Borg type thing so I'm not sure why you think all GC women would be rude to you?’

OP didn’t say ‘all’ - she said ‘a lot’:

‘...a lot of gender critical people i encounter immediately start referring to me as a man even when they had been referring to me as a woman before.‘

To suggest that she thinks of GC women as ‘one huge monolith Borg type thing’ is inaccurate, and mischaracterises what she’s said.

She is speaking from her lived experience of being treated rudely by many - not all - GC women.

She is speaking from her lived experience of being treated rudely by many - not all - GC women

She said people…

I was being cynical, ArabellaScott. When 'people' is used as a means of control, it only ever refers to that one group of people who are not permitted to name themselves. Women.

Whenever I mention that I am transgender and was not born a woman, a lot of gender critical people i encounter immediately start referring to me as a man even when they had been referring to me as a woman before.

If OP had been inclined to engage then I would ask why they think this might be?

She is speaking from her lived experience of being treated rudely by many - not all - GC women.

And women here are speaking from their lived experience of being women and being battered on all sides by misogyny, patriarchy and gender ideology, what women are experiencing is way more than being treated rudely.

@VestofAbsurdity

She is speaking from her lived experience of being treated rudely by many - not all - GC women.

And women here are speaking from their lived experience of being women and being battered on all sides by misogyny, patriarchy and gender ideology, what women are experiencing is way more than being treated rudely.

Hear hear!

@VestofAbsurdity

She is speaking from her lived experience of being treated rudely by many - not all - GC women.

And women here are speaking from their lived experience of being women and being battered on all sides by misogyny, patriarchy and gender ideology, what women are experiencing is way more than being treated rudely.

And not being willing, for many reasons, to enact a belief that you don't hold, and which harms you and your rights is not being rude.

The rude part is demanding your enactment in the first place.

Rudely = women saying no

@EricCartmansGoatee

There's nothing in it for women. Unless of we are including things like:

Activists won't need to report them to their employers for failing to toe the line. (Maya, Kathleen)

Activists won't use the police as the long arm of their woke security, as long as women toe the line. Behave yourself ladies and you'll get to spend Christmas with your kiddies. Step out of line and expect your punishment to be the long drawn out process, hitting you financially, your reputation. (Marian, Ceri, Posie)

Behave yourselves and activists won't post publicly how best they think you should be shamed, lose your house, livelihood, family, friends, be raped, and even die...let's never forget the mocking dancing Halloween skeleton. (The beautiful Magdalen ) also applies to JKR with the additional attempt to separate her from her work, stand outside her home and dox her, enough hate mail to paper her house with.

Behave yourselves ladies otherwise you might end up getting thumped by a fragile 6 foot muscled marginalised man. (Maria)

Dare complain about this ladies and see your witness statements pretty much redacted in full, and your trips abroad cancelled, doxed, made to feel unsafe, (Caroline). There's no justice for you.

Of course I have missed out many other names, really there are so many though that I'd be here all day. Some I have deliberately not mentioned as bringing their names back into the public forum would not be good for their well-being.

Indeed. Its horrifying really.

She is speaking from her lived experience of being treated rudely by many - not all - GC women.

OP has been very vague about what the ‘treatment’ they complain about. It could be anything from pronouns to people stating maliciously that they are a man.

And I would also point out people don’t have to be ‘gender critical’ to be part of the group of people who don’t agree that males can be women because they reductively believe that they ‘feel’ like a woman would feel.

It is the majority of people. All with different motivations.

And just as OP is free to post that they don’t like it, women are free to post about the abusive nature of the manipulative posting. A behaviour that may be a factor in this post, or may be not. What is clear is that some people find the ‘rudeness’ of not using pronouns more egregious than males demanding that they be treated as females in instances when sex matters.

Or those demanding that people lie to spare other’s feelings. (Rather than getting some comprehensive mental health support to deal with the fact that no one else should be expected to participate in that lie to keep you (general you) ‘safe’.)

I’m late to this, but I have no problem being courteous, and would like to think I am to everyone who is courteous and respectful in return.

I struggle with preferred pronouns though, and referencing as women. I am autistic, and find it very difficult to refer to someone as something that I can see is not true. It feels like lying, leaves me feeling uneasy and overwhelmed for days. In these situations I most likely shut down and find it difficult to engage with anyone. Having the freedom to see TW as men but respect their wish to present themselves in a more feminine way would feel much more comfortable.

Within reasonable boundaries I don’t care how anyone wishes to dress or present themselves. I’m not judgey. I strongly believe that everyone has a right to live as they wish.
My exceptions are kinks in public. They need to stay private between consenting adults. Pride has become revolting because of kink.

My problems with the current gender stuff going on are:

1. Single sex exemptions, women being able to talk about female only issues, women having single sex spaces where necessary, are all currently being seen as transphobic. This is not ok, and I can’t understand why anyone ever expected this to lie without backlash.
2. Children transitioning. The majority of trans children are autistic/neglected/abused/lesbian.

Affirming gender dysphoria without exploring underlying causes is irresponsible. Transitioning isn’t harmless, and many effects of puberty blockers and cross sex hormones are irreversible. Children are also being pushed into more rigid gender stereotypes, to the point where gender non conforming girls believe they must be boys. It’s tragic that the world was slowly getting to a place where bits and girls could express themselves more freely without having to label themselves. Now boys who like dolls and makeup must be girls, and short haired girls who like trucks and dinosaurs must be boys.

1. Lesbians and same sex attracted. Men identifying as lesbians and wanting to sleep with lesbians is as old as the hills. This doesn’t feel any different, and it’s unfair to vilify lesbians for not wanting to consider TW as partners.
2. I have some issues with being around men. I am never more comfortable than when I’m in a female only space environment. When a man walks in, the atmosphere changes completely. Guards go up. Conversation changes. Unfortunately this doesn’t change when the man identifies as a woman. Again it’s unfair to vilify women for needing these spaces.

As a 17 year old, encountering a middle aged male person in skirt and wig in the ladies' toilets, you could have said I was very polite. I didn't question the presence of this person or mention the state of excitability. I didn't say a single word. I didn't even wash my hands, just kept my eyes lowered and left as quickly and as quietly as I could while he leaned against the sinks, shaking and moaning.

Although my silence could be taken as 'courtesy', it wasn't really, if I'm honest. It was self preservation. I was alarmed, confused and wary at the presence of this person.

Of course, some people wish to tell us that women's internal sense of self preservation and desire to avoid conflict, risk and potential harm is in itself bigoted. That me, as a 17 year old girl, wielded some kind of 'cis privilege' over this middle aged, heavy set male bodied person and should be obliged to be 'courteous' and 'kind', more than concerned for my own safety and well being. And that it would be rude or unfair to even mention this incident now.

So women are silenced out of fear, in the first instance, and silenced again out of a more subtle fear - that of being seen as rude/non-compliant/nasty. This is something most women understand very well. It's the shame that gets you and keeps you quiet.

If it's rude to say 'no', to talk about women's feelings and experiences and thoughts, then fine. I am rude. I will not observe 'courtesy'. I do not submit.

No, thank you.

As an aside, "lived experience" always makes me laugh. As opposed to what? How else do you experience life?

With toilets I’d like to point out that if I see a male in the ladies, I know that he has already been arrogant enough to have stepped over the threshold, it’s antagonistic, he’s already purposefully broken a barrier. I don’t start fights with with antagonistic people, no woman would in an enclosed space with a man. Our silence is not acceptance.

@RepentBirthingPersonFucker

I guess this will be a plop and run

You have the gift of prophecy!

Also I think talking about "lived experience" is a bit bloody rich if you are prepared to insist that you are a woman when you have zero "lived experience" of what women's lives are like. Funnily enough the "lived experience" of being trans must be respected and believed at all times but the " "lived experience" of being in a sexed body, well it's just fine to appropriate that and claim the rights accorded because of it.

Funnily enough the "lived experience" of being trans must be respected and believed at all times but the " "lived experience" of being in a sexed body, well it's just fine to appropriate that and claim the rights accorded because of it.
Well said!

I think it should be OK to discuss why women might be uncomfortable referring to a transwoman as "she" or "her".

So women are silenced out of fear, in the first instance, and silenced again out of a more subtle fear - that of being seen as rude/non-compliant/nasty. This is something most women understand very well. It's the shame that gets you and keeps you quiet.

And presumably that's exactly what the screenshots are designed to do too. Punishment for non-compliance.