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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Tom Daley Christmas message

168 replies

ChristinaXYZ · 21/12/2021 16:29

Tom Daley is giving the alternative Christmas message on Channel 4 this year.

www.channel4.com/press/news/tom-daley-deliver-2021-alternative-christmas-message

Scroll down the above page for the text of the speech.

I am fine with him praising Quinn but he skips over the other conflicting arguments and issues over including transwomen in women's sport.

He is however spot on with the ridiculousness of major sports granting the prestige of the top competitions to places with dubious human rights records.

OP posts:
Snoozer11 · 22/12/2021 03:02

Are these Tom's words or has he been paid to say them?

RVN123 · 22/12/2021 07:04

The remarkable achievements of trans athletes generally consists of the remarkable achievements of mediocre males who still have the ability to beat female athletes due to their male physiology.

Mediocre males.

Well done all you mediocre males.

GoodieMoomin · 22/12/2021 07:44

Surrogacy is an abhorrent practice and I can't look at him the same way since he went down that route.

In any civilised society it should never be possible to "commission" a woman to have a baby for you, which she will hand over after it's born. We aren't talking about puppies and kittens here, we're talking about living, breathing human babies. I will never understand why anyone could ever think it's ok to ask a woman to undertake all the physical and emotional risks of pregnancy and child birth simply to hand the baby over to a 3rd party. And what of the baby? Conceived with the aim of being separated from it's mother soon after birth, with all the damage that is known to cause?

I'm (not) sorry, having a baby isn't a human right.

This episode of Venus Rising is excellent on this topic
venusrising.podomatic.com/enclosure/2019-10-10T22_00_00-07_00.mp3 via

Binglebong · 22/12/2021 08:13

we aren't talking about puppies and kittens here, we're talking about living, breathing human babies.

There are laws about how soon you can take a puppy away from its mother because of how damaging it is for them both.

Tanith · 22/12/2021 08:29

@Omicrone

His love of knitting is stomach turning - it’s a show piece.

I don't like the man that much, but why is his knitting 'stomach churning?Confused

It's a technique that extreme porn advocate Jane Fae used for attention when Jane was invited on TV to discuss trans rights. We haven't seen Jane knitting on mainstream channels for quite some time since Jane's taste for violent porn became more widely known.
Lovelyricepudding · 22/12/2021 09:54

It always makes me think they are styling themselves after Madame Therese Defarge - except they are the aristocracy.

FannyCann · 22/12/2021 10:00

I really recommend Venus Rising podcasts, which usually last about half an hour - exactly my journey to work. Whilst some discuss surrogacy related issues other are about fertility issues generally and other topics of interest.

Episode notes of the podcast @GoodieMoomin posted.

"Today we travel across the pond to talk to England's own, Gary Powell. Gary is a LGB activist, public administration campaigner, and an original signer of the Stop Surrogacy Now statement. Gary was tutored in Philosophy by the Rt Hon Baroness Mary Warnock, a specialist in reproductive ethics whose inquiry led to the UK Human Fertilisation and Embryology Act 1990. Join us as we find out why, as a gay man, Gary opposes surrogacy."

podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/venus-rising/id1481872967?i=1000453100687

Dinosaurwoman · 22/12/2021 10:10

Well that’s him unfollowed on Instagram!

AllKnowingGerbil · 22/12/2021 10:10

I agree with him regarding hosting sports events in places with dreadful human rights records.

He is also right to shine a light on homophobia in male football.

What if we all started from the same place. Wouldnt that be something to be proud of is an interesting point. I imagine female sportspeople feel like that when competing with a trans opponent.

Theeyeballsinthesky · 22/12/2021 10:23

It’s what happens when you throw TQ in with LGB

Of course he’s right about homophobia in sport but that’s got nothing to do with whether biological men should compete with women because of how they feel

And of course he doesn’t really believe TWAW - he knows exactly what sex gives both to babies. He knows TWATW.

TheMarzipanDildo · 22/12/2021 10:28

@Juggins2

I'm gender critical at heart but I can't get myself worked up by the use of surrogates. Why is it so offensive that gay men get to have babies too? If the surrogate woman signs up to help then I can't see the harm?
It’s not just gay men who use surrogates. I object to the use of surrogates full stop, not to “gay men having babies”.
SapphosRock · 22/12/2021 10:59

I hope a bunch of dolphins start identifying as men and win all the diving competitions. That would serve him right.

Beowulfa · 22/12/2021 11:26

@SapphosRock

I hope a bunch of dolphins start identifying as men and win all the diving competitions. That would serve him right.
To be fair, I'd tune in to watch dolphins at the Olympics.

If Tom Daley was less pretty, would the press be quite so interested in him I wonder?

Hypatia415 · 22/12/2021 11:35

@Charley50

Male sportspeople need to stand up for women's sports. Until they do that, they can fuck off. Daley Thompson has publicly made a stand. Has anyone else? Has Andy Murray, who stands up for women in so many ways?
Yes, Andy Murray is pro-women and pro-trans - because they're not in opposition to each other.

Also, surrogacy has long been a thing with many women helping other women to have families. Would all those accusing Tom Daley of 'buying a baby' and being 'disgusting' hold the same standard towards others who have been involved in a surrogacy process?

Beowulfa · 22/12/2021 11:41

Andy Murray is pro-women and pro-trans - because they're not in opposition to each other.

Until a mediocre male tennis player utters the magic words "I identify as a woman" and ends up playing the current womens number 1. Then they are quite literally opposing each other. Who benefits in this scenario? It's not women, or sport, is it?

Theeyeballsinthesky · 22/12/2021 11:47

Yes I’m waiting to hear how allowing them likes of Lia Thomas to identify as a woman and annihilate all the biologically female swimmers isn’t in opposition to womens rights

allmywhat · 22/12/2021 11:48

There are laws about how soon you can take a puppy away from its mother because of how damaging it is for them both.

That’s a really good, saddening point. And puppies are born at a later stage of development than human babies. Human babies are the most helpless and dependent on their mothers of all infant mammals.

Shimmyshimmycocobop · 22/12/2021 11:48

I think surrogacy as an altruistic means to help someone have a baby is one thing but surrogacy as it is in the US, which is where Tom Daley and Dustin Lance Black found their surrogate and egg donor is exploitative. DLB is campaigning to try and get the laws changed in the UK to resemble US surrogacy laws.

As someone said before on here when rich women start offering to have babies for others I may revise my opinion.

Kotatsu · 22/12/2021 11:51

Also, surrogacy has long been a thing with many women helping other women to have families. Would all those accusing Tom Daley of 'buying a baby' and being 'disgusting' hold the same standard towards others who have been involved in a surrogacy process?

Yes, absolutely, because it's not about who is buying a baby it's about buying a baby - you can't buy a kidney, you have to wait until a puppy is ready to leave its mother, but a whole human? Sure, you can pay a woman to put her health at risk to grow you a baby and take it away the moment it's born.

How anyone can support it at all, I just don't understand.

ClaudiaWankleman · 22/12/2021 11:53

Feminist objections to surrogacy are around the comodification of women's bodies and the damage done to babies when we deliberately bring them into the world with the specific intent of removing them from their birth mothers.

So you're opposed to adoption?

Mindareno · 22/12/2021 11:55

Yes, Andy Murray is pro-women and pro-trans - because they're not in opposition to each other

They are in direct opposition when it comes to sport. It couldn’t be more stark.

Kotatsu · 22/12/2021 11:58

So you're opposed to adoption?

we deliberately bring them into the world with the specific intent of removing them from their birth mothers.

this bit is key. Adoption is making the best of the circumstances we find ourselves in, and is acknowledged to be extremely difficult for all involved, hence the vetting and support. This is intentionally creating an adoption situation, intentionally traumatising a baby by removing it from its mother as soon as it's born, for money.

TooWicked · 22/12/2021 12:01

Would all those accusing Tom Daley of 'buying a baby' and being 'disgusting' hold the same standard towards others who have been involved in a surrogacy process?

Yes.

HTH.

FannyCann · 22/12/2021 12:18

I didn't want to derail the thread into a surrogacy discussion but anyway, we have diverted that way.

As someone who grew up on a dairy farm I simply see it as farming, using women as breeders to supply babies for those who want them and in most cases can afford to pay for them. A trade in babies.

Some women do claim to love being pregnant and "giving the greatest gift" etc. I simply think they are contributing to the demeaning narrative of women being expected to provide breeding services. Just because it's worked for them doesn't make it a good thing.

Siblings doing it for each other (or other family arrangements) ? Again, no doubt in some cases it goes swimmingly but family relationships are complicated and it can involve a lot of guilting/coercion of the sibling providing the service as well as complications after the baby is born. How many personal accounts have we seen of people who grew up not understanding the family dynamics as the big secret was that their "sister" was in fact their mother and their "mother" was their grandmother. Do we think these modern arrangements are any more pure, and less likely to cause difficulties to the child that was conceived to be given to another family member?

I note none of the Kardashian sisters stepped up to help Kim. Oh no. Because pregnancy and childbirth can wreak havoc on one's body. Best leave that to a woman of lower class/education/economic status who will be subject to a NDA among other contractual clauses.

Women can have serious health problems as a result of childbirth up to and including death. There have been three deaths of surrogate mothers this year alone in the USA, but those are the ones that are known about. Thanks to NDAs most go u recorded unless someone alert notices a gofundme to raise money for the bereaved family. Details are scant.

As @TheMarzipanDildo said, it's not just gay men. It's women, usually in a heterosexual relationship so also het men. And increasingly single men, choosing to avoid the whole messy business of a relationship with a woman whatever their sexuality.

There is also the issue of related exploitation of women who are persuaded to sell their eggs, those sibling arrangements may be altruistic but usually will involve obtaining an egg from another woman.

I'm with @GoodieMoomin

In any civilised society it should never be possible to "commission" a woman to have a baby for you, which she will hand over after it's born. We aren't talking about puppies and kittens here, we're talking about living, breathing human babies. I will never understand why anyone could ever think it's ok to ask a woman to undertake all the physical and emotional risks of pregnancy and child birth simply to hand the baby over to a 3rd party. And what of the baby? Conceived with the aim of being separated from it's mother soon after birth, with all the damage that is known to cause?

Blinkingbatshit · 22/12/2021 12:20

I just don’t understand how these supposedly compus mentus educated people cannot see that putting a person born male up against a person born female in a sporting contest is neither fair nor right.

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