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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Rapes committed by women - JKR got me thinking

322 replies

scratchedbymycat · 13/12/2021 19:10

JKR just tweeted again. I agree wholeheartedly with her views, but some of the responses have got me thinking.

Why does it matter if crime stats say women rape?

(I promise I'm not trolling here. In fact, I'm hoping for some startlingly clear objective responses to fuel my arguments.)

For me, I find it downright hateful, after all the violence and hate directed towards women by men, that stats will now say 'women are doing it to women'. That makes me so damn angry. But is feeling offended by this, on principle, enough?

On crime stats and recording... Seth Abramson (I know) on Twitter commented that the fact the perpetrator has a penis will come up in the court case. So the court will know they are not biologically female.

Also, if we say a woman raped another, doesn't that also immediately tell us the rapist was transgender? (The only group who identify as women but are also bepenised).

How does a biological women rape another? Because I've seen claims on Twitter that some biological women have been found guilty of rape. Is this a lie?

I'm trying to tease my thoughts out. Only just starting to comment about the gender identity consequences for women to friends etc, and just want to be super clear when I say anything, and not to slip into emotional anger (which happens a lot for me).

OP posts:
Linguini · 14/12/2021 21:18

Technically the law encompasses penetration by a penis or a surgically created penis (neo Phallus)

I don't think so. It just says penis.

scratchedbymycat · 14/12/2021 23:33

I've just found a paper arguing that the definition of rape should be gender neutral. I haven't read it yet. I got as far as sex being conflated with rape and stopped, otherwise I wouldn't sleep.

link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s11572-018-9485-6

OP posts:
CheeseMmmm · 15/12/2021 00:01

I used to think it would be fine to change it.

Before all this.

Now I'm fucking grateful we have this crime that stats show things changing with men/women committing rape.

The usual response to the rape stats. The prosecution stats, 400 ish women prosecuted. Is That female women can be charged with rape if heavily involved (rare) here.

Just realised that means they are starting that it's more likely that assisting rapists and being prosecuted for rape, increasing incredibly fast.

Is more likely than its males who ID as women.

That's a totally shit take.

Ignoring fact it happens, never saying it must be women assisting, and that's a huge worrying change what's driving it.

Complaining our defn rape is outrageous.

Ignoring penetration with object law. That carries same penalties. Saying law says 'just' sexual assault. (Just? And... Not true anyway)...

It's a misogynist shitshow.

CheeseMmmm · 15/12/2021 00:09

Read fair chunk of into that link.

It's saying not on because women rape men.

There are issues with male victims of sexual coercion etc from women has a lot of unhelpful stuff around it eg lucky bloke etc.

Changing the law to not specify penis is not the solution.

First thing is to work to change social views about sexual coercion etc. That going along with lucky you is shitty.

As in general with men and boys who are victims of sex crimes (usually committed by men) reporting has loads of barriers related to masculinity.

That's what needs to change.

Not reporting because of definition in law of different types of assault. Is not the immediate problem.

Would making law in rape not say penis encourage male victims of sex offences report more? Not convinced.

SolasAnla · 16/12/2021 00:19

I posted this news clip before about how language and word choice is complex communication.

There is also tone, volume, pace, facial movement, body language etc

Look at the clip and the use of titles

H: Miss ... Miss...
K: Mr... I am married so Mrs
H: Mrs...
K: Mr.. (no objection from H)
H: first name...
K: it's Mrs.....Mr...
H: it's Dr....

Now listen to the presenter
We are joined by:
Dr...
No title

Can you spot when the change to Mr happened?

Do we have a structure around when it is appropriate to use only a first name or only a family name or a title and family name. Why do women traditionally change their name? Why were these social structures developed?

Second point of language
When were TM discussed?
Why was TW replaced by TP?

@scratchedbymycat
support to rape victims and heard a woman who was raped claim, in a group session, that the fact she was white and her attacker was black was particularly difficult for her.
This may well be true for her - as a racist - but for others its not something that would ordinarily be seen as additionally harming. The same could be said of gender identity.

You may note I have highlighted some words you have chosen.

Claim:
state that something is the case, typically without providing evidence or proof.

If I said that claim was a racist word, what words do you need to use to communicate the exact same message?

Your chosen a word "claim" which expressed a value judgement on her disclosure.
Was this a conscious choice?

If the word "said" is used would the sentence be more "neutral"?

Said:
uttered words so as to convey information, an opinion, a feeling or intention, or an instruction

You described the woman as a racist.
What is your word for a Black woman who said the same about a Black man of a different ethnic group?
A Muslim woman about a non-muslim?
A Catholic woman about priest?

Can you use a single word for each instance.
Is that word a "neutral" word?

Rather than debate your "side" ask the individual to explain what makes one human male a boy/man and another a girl/woman.

If woman no longer means adult human female should there be a word to summarise those 3 words?

Example off Twitter, apparently the Welsh are removing the word woman/man from sex education. Women tweeted that the school could just teach about having sex with females. That actually physically impossible for most and actually a criminal offence for all but one species.

We write law with words. Societies change the laws and adapt to meet social need.

Below is a chronology of events of how the legislation written to prosecute sex offender and also protect the survivors of sexual assault and people below the age of majority (children).
www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/my-name-is-aisling-woman-wins-battle-to-name-man-who-raped-her-when-she-was-a-child-1.4651980

There is a proposal to legislate gender identity into hate crime law.
If this hate crime act passed and Hannon used the GRA to change name and legal sex what words would be lawful?

CheeseMmmm · 16/12/2021 01:32

I had missed the post about racist.

Thank you for breaking down the language. You're right, it's massively important, and often telling.

I had a look for that post couldn't see it, anyone got time date as would like to read in full

SolasAnla · 16/12/2021 02:07

By @scratchedbymycat at 13:32 on 14th
Replying to this:

@Zerogravity

Exactly. It is already traumatic to be a victim of rape. Having to refer to your male attacker as a woman is awful.

CheeseMmmm · 16/12/2021 02:08

Thanks I'll have a look.

CheeseMmmm · 16/12/2021 02:26

Thanks!

My first question is-
As an employee, hearing what's said in group session for rape victims, must mean the OP is the one who was facilitating the session.

Training/ possibly qualifications etc in supporting rape victims.

Obv not identifiable but I am uneasy that a person in that position of trust, presumably assurances and group commitment not to share outside group etc.

Would share as an anecdote, even confidentially. Including that you thought yep racist generally full stop. Using the language that was pointed out in pp.

I doesn't sit right with me at all.

Did you react to what she said?

CheeseMmmm · 16/12/2021 02:36

I am aware that in recent years it's often acted on if a woman says something that indicates prejudice towards certain groups.

Eg

Woman doesn't feel comfy opening up about her rape in a situation which is not all female IE a male with a gender identity that is not woman.

I have read a few times that some women have been refused support of various types on the basis of transphobia.

Given the particular dynamics with rape. I cannot understand why female people can't be accommodated with this.

So all those who need support get it.

A rape crisis org rebuking, let alone refusing service to a rape victim, because they don't want to discuss with a male present, is just shit. Imo but also obviously.

Rhannion · 16/12/2021 02:46

There is also the issue that men are also raped by other men, so a man might be forced to refer to his rapist as a “ she “ if the rapist has decided that they are now a woman.
This issue isn’t just about statistics, it’s about words, biology and truth.

Rhannion · 16/12/2021 02:51

@CheeseMmmm

I am aware that in recent years it's often acted on if a woman says something that indicates prejudice towards certain groups.

Eg

Woman doesn't feel comfy opening up about her rape in a situation which is not all female IE a male with a gender identity that is not woman.

I have read a few times that some women have been refused support of various types on the basis of transphobia.

Given the particular dynamics with rape. I cannot understand why female people can't be accommodated with this.

So all those who need support get it.

A rape crisis org rebuking, let alone refusing service to a rape victim, because they don't want to discuss with a male present, is just shit. Imo but also obviously.

I don’t you if you are aware that the CEO of Rape Crisis Centre in Edinburgh is a trans identifying man who has no GRC , ( even with that he is still a man imho) lied by omission to get jobs in Rape crisis Centres in Scotland, said that victims should “ reframe their trauma and left the SNP as MSPs voted that victims did have the rights to choose the sex of their medical examiner.
Rhannion · 16/12/2021 02:55

[quote ScreamingMeMe]In the Daily Record:

www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/jk-rowling-new-trans-war-25683438[/quote]
I’m glad this is in the Daily Record as more sunlight on this bull shit up here the better!

CheeseMmmm · 16/12/2021 03:02

The thing I find incomprehensible about orgs that support, lobby, fundraise etc to improve things.

Is that I've looked at a lot of orgs, and there's a pretty much universal focus on-

  • Not creating additional services, but on existing services to change, from single sex from single gender.
  • Focus is massively on tw. Non binary, transmen, other genders really don't get much interest at all.
  • Fact is that the more specific services the better.
Different groups benefit most from tailored support. The dynamics are also very different. Surely a service/s for trans people. With lots/ all transpeople working there. Will be aware of specific issues (levels of homelessness, selling sex, MH issues, rape used because they are trans,..).And so much more.

Why is this not anywhere on the table? Why do these orgs seen to focus on telling others wear to do, and not creating trans specific support?

I saw a document with analysis of biggest issues faced. One was high levels homeless.

The actions they decided on did not mention homelessness at all. And all the actions were for others to do stuff.

That's just not right.

  • example I read a long breakdown of a
CheeseMmmm · 16/12/2021 03:04

Yes I am aware.

And the info on their site and statements.

Are mainly about service users behaving themselves.

CheeseMmmm · 16/12/2021 03:07

Home page. Second thing mentioned what they do

'We work to change attitudes about gender based violence'

Totally nothing to do with what a rape crisis org is for.

CheeseMmmm · 16/12/2021 03:08

Which attitudes need to be changed?

Women are main group they are for, what attitudes do they need to have changed?

Is it the time or the place for this?

About10thusername · 16/12/2021 03:12

It's because numbers are important. There are whole public bodies that report on this information and funding is based on it - it needs to be accurate.

  • imagine if the met were looking into a different crime. Say knife crime. It is important to know facts such as age and where they live. Because of this, we know that knife crime is a problem with young men in some cities. We therefore need to direct resources to the right people.
If we missed represented where some of these crimes took place, you cannot tackle the real issue.
TheChild · 16/12/2021 06:51

@Snowdancer385

"But just the principle that a woman's discomfort at having to call her rapist 'she' is trumped by the rapists discomfort at being referred to as 'he' makes me so angry."

We could, you know, default to referring to people by "they", but for some reason you lash out against that idea.

You seem very eager to stick up for rapists. Why is that?
scratchedbymycat · 16/12/2021 10:00

@SolasAnla

Remember - my intentions with this post was to sort out my ideas and find a way through a morass of issues and responses so I can talk to people in a way they can HEAR why this is an issue.

So, my response was to this:

Exactly. It is already traumatic to be a victim of rape. Having to refer to your male attacker as a woman is awful.

The moment I saw those words, I remembered Mridhal Whadi's comment about people needing to be re-educated.

However ... when I heard Whadi's comments the first time, I instantly remembered this experience I had, and the post (in bold above) brought it all back again.

(@CheeseMmmm - I wasn't the facilitator; and it happened over thirty years ago; and in a different country).

The woman making this statement WAS racist. No question about it. She shared this in a group which included black women who had been raped, who reacted very very badly to it.

The reaction went something along the lines of 'Are you saying your rape was worse because you're white?' Her response was, 'Yes. Black woman are used to these sort of experiences from black men, therefore it's more shocking for white women.' Also comments about how more rapists are black etc.

It caused incredible distress. The facilitator, who was black, did not feel able to continue working with her. Other black members of the charity threatened to walk out if black women who had been raped were expected to confront this in group situations.

Now - Transpose Whadi's view, which presumably be that this woman needed to be re-educated in racism. (At least, that's what I thought when I heard whadi say that).

That's not what we did though. And trust me, the context we were working in regards race was far more explosive than the current TWAW context. It was tough. Massive talks in-house, where we all agreed that our primary job was to provide a service to women in a moment of CRISIS irrespective of their views. And that crisis was rape. So we focussed on that. _
_
We agreed, even if it made us uncomfortable, that, to this woman, the fact that she had been raped by a black man WAS an additional trauma to her. But her expression if that was an additional trauma to black women. Group work wasn't working for her or other women in the group, so she had face to face support from another white charity worker.

I don't know if we got it right. I feel though, to take her to one side and say 'Listen, you can't share things like that' - if that was her truth - would not have helped her get over a point of immediate raw crisis. There's a time and a place, and that was neither the time nor the place.

So, back to this thread ...

Knowing that some people I might speak to would hear these words

Exactly. It is already traumatic to be a victim of rape. Having to refer to your male attacker as a woman is awful.

as transphobic would mean they might instantly stop listening. I have resolved to not address the question of whether it is or isn't transphobic when talking to friends, but focus on the issues of crisis and need, and share this experience as an example.

My view is that 're-educating' women who have been raped, almost as a condition of whether they get support or not, is not right. In fact, if I remember my own experience of trauma, if someone had instead tried to 'fix' something else, I think I'd have felt that was barbaric and even more isolating and made things a whole lot worse.

OP posts:
jellyfrizz · 16/12/2021 10:17

Why does it matter if crime stats say women rape?

With these kinds of questions I tend to think about sex being similar to age in terms of it being immutable (but somewhat possible to pass as a different one) and also because it means that the person may be more vulnerable because of that characteristic, may need different provision because of biology…

Replacing sex with age here:

‘Why does it matter if crime stats say children rape?’

Most of the same reasons will apply.

SolasAnla · 16/12/2021 10:29

@About10thusername

It's because numbers are important. There are whole public bodies that report on this information and funding is based on it - it needs to be accurate.
  • imagine if the met were looking into a different crime. Say knife crime. It is important to know facts such as age and where they live. Because of this, we know that knife crime is a problem with young men in some cities. We therefore need to direct resources to the right people.
If we missed represented where some of these crimes took place, you cannot tackle the real issue.
The Irish CSO (central statistics office) publications have a qualified the Irish murder numbers as possibly being inaccurate.

They get them directly from the police.

The police system is not reliable enough to be an acceptable source of data to establish if a death is due to the deliberate taking of a human life.

Wheresthebeach · 16/12/2021 10:42

@EmpressaurusWitchDoesntBurn

And the lies about the perpetrator’s identify matter at the individual level because of the impact on the victim.

Plus the rapists then end up in women’s prisons, which mean that women prisoners are stuck locked up with them.

It completely distorts the level of male violence against females and makes a mockery of the data used to deal with crime.

It puts more women at risk of assault, as rapists are put in women's jails.

Adds to the victims trauma to have to worry about pronouns. This is why groups like Fair Play For Women, and Keep Prisons Single Sex are working hard on keeping women's spaces for biological women only.

Their site is here if you fancy a read kpssinfo.org/

HoardingSamphireSaurus · 16/12/2021 11:25

@CheeseMmmm

The thing I find incomprehensible about orgs that support, lobby, fundraise etc to improve things.

Is that I've looked at a lot of orgs, and there's a pretty much universal focus on-

  • Not creating additional services, but on existing services to change, from single sex from single gender.
  • Focus is massively on tw. Non binary, transmen, other genders really don't get much interest at all.
  • Fact is that the more specific services the better.
Different groups benefit most from tailored support. The dynamics are also very different. Surely a service/s for trans people. With lots/ all transpeople working there. Will be aware of specific issues (levels of homelessness, selling sex, MH issues, rape used because they are trans,..).And so much more.

Why is this not anywhere on the table? Why do these orgs seen to focus on telling others wear to do, and not creating trans specific support?

I saw a document with analysis of biggest issues faced. One was high levels homeless.

The actions they decided on did not mention homelessness at all. And all the actions were for others to do stuff.

That's just not right.

  • example I read a long breakdown of a
Allow me to flesh that out @CheeseMmmm

Yes. A couple of weeks ago we received yet another letter informing us that our diverity was still an issue for our continued funding as we specifically do not accommodate men. We are a rape crisis centre and refuge set up by women, for women and their children, staffed by women.

We support another centre that does cater for men, transwomen, non binary individuals etc. We support it ffinancially and in doing much of itss administration (that would include me, my funding admin) But we specifically accommodate women and their children.

The needs of all of these groups is different. Very, very different. Different medical needs, different psychological impacts, different therapeutic approach, different life support. I rely upon that to try and protect the funding we do get. Though some of the larger funding streams (and yes, I do mean the Lottery) aren't accepting that at the moment.

A service by and for trans people? Separate services for transwomen and transmen and then another umbrella service for all of the other genders? I can tell you that the number of trans individuals we have seen over the last 3 - 4 years is 3. I may live outside London, but I am not on an isolated island. We have had 2 transwomen and 1 transman ask to use our services and we have accommodated them all. Just not in the female service - the transman was, as many are, 'fully transitioned', the transwomen, again as many are, were not.

I have no idea what you have been reading, there is so much out there to choose from, but some changes have been forced upon our table by all funding streams. We don't create trans specific support because that isn't our remit. We are a legal entity and those same funding streams would come down on us like a hammer if we spent our money on something we had not declared.

That and we are a service set up and run by women, for women. Id there are so many transwomen/people out ther that need a simialr service then maybe they could come and talk to us and we could support them setting up their own services. Just like the men's shelter did. I'll repeat what I said about that elsewhere. We could NOT accommodate the mens service under our group umbrella, there were too many inherent conflicts. Their response? OK, let's do what we can do together and not screw up our finances and support. Which is why we part fund one of their groups and I do a lot of funding admin for them. We do what we can to suport them. But must retain spece, for the sake of our clients and funding (yes, I know that contradicts everything else I said. That's how fucked up this gets).

One of the biggest issues faced for women who have expereinced domestic violence is indeed homelessness. That is why some crisis centres also have or are affiliated with, refuges. I have o idea why some people insist that those people who have spent decades doing this are unaware of the issues?

The actions you would have seen would probably have been for organisations whose remit is NOT housing. Whose funding and organisational procedures do not include conjuring up a block of flats.

You may not have seen anything from those who do because their location, and often their very existence, is of absolute necessity, a bloody secret. Should you track me down you will find a foodbank, a meals on wheels service, a large number of single parent groups, and a small group of crisis support groups. You won't find anything about the refuge/s. Nothing at all. We are small, local and work very hard to remain invisible.

We are sticking to our guns. Womens service, single sex. No gender ideology will confuse that. We will continue to do as we have, at risk of diluting our core business, because we cannot condone doing otherwise. The minute we do, are forced to, I will be back here with names and addresses, you will know exactly who I am and wehre I work. I will want your support. Until then, I will remain vague, anonymous... and angry!

Blibbyblobby · 16/12/2021 11:37

@HoardingSamphireSaurus

There are not enough flowers in the world to thank you for what you do for the women you support directly and the other groups you help.

Flowers
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