If a general election was called, who would you vote for?

[Anothernamechange3]

Or really, who can I vote for? I don’t want to vote Tory, especially after today’s revelations. I also don’t feel happy voting Labour or Green, for reasons often discussed on this board. Is there a party you’d feel happy to vote to be in power if you had a chance to, say, tomorrow? Feeling pretty despondent

The rest of the post.

1. We are NOT AMERICAN. They are totally different to us. Totally. We share a language. That's about it. Why this constant referencing USA on here? It's very strange. I don't know why it happens so much.

1. Unless something huge changes. Tories will walk next election. And it won't be because of a few women with no strong political leanings voted that way. Obviously.

But I'm getting the feeling lately that- Labour losing won't be because of shit response to anti semitism. Or a leader with as much charisma as a tin of beans. It won't be because of momentum / infighting / zero unity. It won't be because they're currently HOPELESS and have been for s good while.

Nope. It'll be same as everything. Women's fault.
In this case women, sorry people with vaginas who wouldn't do what they were told...

I would vote Labour, my MP isLouise Haigh & she is brilliant, she fought for me when I lost my enhanced PIP & helped sort things to get SEN support at school for ds.

How anybody can happily vote for the brazen and active undermining of democracy itself and its descent into fascism, is really beyond me.

God help us.

Yeah, see, the hyperbole also doesn't do the left's arguments any favours. I am no huge fan of the Tories on the whole, I favour a more leftist economic/social policy, but to call the Conservatives 'far right' or imply they are fascists is just inaccurate.

@ArabellaScott

How anybody can happily vote for the brazen and active undermining of democracy itself and its descent into fascism, is really beyond me.

God help us.

Yeah, see, the hyperbole also doesn't do the left's arguments any favours. I am no huge fan of the Tories on the whole, I favour a more leftist economic/social policy, but to call the Conservatives 'far right' or imply they are fascists is just inaccurate.

And fascism has killed far fewer people than communism… (Not that I’m advocating for either of course).

I think identity politics has been adopted by the left and the young because they are too afraid/defeated/ignorant to push left wing economics. The elders in the left movement go along with it because they think it appeals to the young.
But because its bullshit it will end up destroying the left. Well it already has really.

As working class I’ve always been uncomfortably aware Labour assume they have the right to decide what is best for working class communities without talking to them and largely regard us with paternalistic benevolence when the we’re doing and saying what Labour feel is appropriate and regard us with sneering contempt when we deign to disagree with the Labour luvvies opinion.

Seeing them apply similar principles to women as a sex class and insist the males identifying as women know better how women should behave and think was a whole extra level of fuckwittery.

At least the Tories simply don’t care about either. I’ll take that over sneering contempt and policies that deny my autonomy and lived experience.

I think it was the Gordon Brown / Gillian Duffy incident that marked the beginning of the end for me and Labour. At the time I made excuses for him, but then the attitude towards Brexit voters pretty much confirmed for me (even though I'm still a remainer) that the left really don't like the working classes very much. And all that was before I'd even heard about self ID.

This thread is a great example of how we got here.

In a democracy like ours elected representatives don’t always do what the electorate want but the electorate do always get the elected representatives that they vote for.

That’s what happened after Brexit when the politicians refused to do as the majority wanted and deliver Brexit. In order to get Brexit done the Brexit supporting majority did the only thing it could do and replaced many anti-Brexit MPs with candidates committed to delivering Brexit and dozens of former ‘safe’ Labour seats got their first conservative MPs in decades in the process. That is in fact the only way we ever could have gotten Brexit because if an MP really, really doesn’t want to vote for something then they won’t.

But Brexit voters were smart enough to vote based on the policy that mattered most to them at the time.

Judging by some of the comments that’s not entirely the case here. I have no doubt that if we had an election tomorrow where only mumsnetters could vote they would elect a liberal, green or Labour government or similar and then shout furiously as these MPs that they had just elected passed into law the very policies they said that they were committed to passing into law if elected.

Judging by some of the comments that’s not entirely the case here. I have no doubt that if we had an election tomorrow where only mumsnetters could vote they would elect a liberal, green or Labour government or similar and then shout furiously as these MPs that they had just elected passed into law the very policies they said that they were committed to passing into law if elected.

I don't like this version of telling off either.

Anyway, who people say they'll vote for and who they actually vote for are two different things.

@ArabellaScott

How anybody can happily vote for the brazen and active undermining of democracy itself and its descent into fascism, is really beyond me.

God help us.

Yeah, see, the hyperbole also doesn't do the left's arguments any favours. I am no huge fan of the Tories on the whole, I favour a more leftist economic/social policy, but to call the Conservatives 'far right' or imply they are fascists is just inaccurate.

I'm well aware of the hyperbolic use of the f-word among the left, but this really isn't it.

They are introducing photo ID for voting, to solve a supposed problem with impersonation that doesn't exist. Which will likely reduce the number of poor, young, itinerant, migrant etc. people able to vote. Who tend to vote Labour. What a coincidence. As well as overseeing boundary changes to increase the already-existing extent to which the Tories need fewer votes than Labour to win more seats.

They are steadily challenging and undermining various structures that exist to call the govt. to account and provide legal checks and balances upon them. From the electoral commission to the parliamentary standards authority.

They are interfering with the supposed impartiality of the BBC and getting Tory donors and high supporters into key positions. They already have direct contol over most of the rest of the media, but that's not enough apparently.

They are introducing the police crime and sentencing act to place far greater restrictions on the legal right to protest and effectively give police the right to prevent people protesting for the flimsiest of reasons.

They have massively abused the power of government to hand publicly funded contracts during the covid epidemic to their own mates, many with no due process of tender or monitoring of value.

I did say "voting for the DESCENT INTO fasicsm", not that it was actually a facsist government already. But abuse of democratic process to make the government effectively dictatorial without meaningful chance of being removed; the focusing of all power in that government without a meaningful legislature to contain its excesses; government control of the media and dissemination of information; the repression of protest; not to mention the use of minorities (benefit claimants, immigrants) as targets for popular aggression to unite enough of the populace behind them - these are the absolute, classic features of fascism. They are basically the definition of the word.

What would you call it?

@newnamesa

I think identity politics has been adopted by the left and the young because they are too afraid/defeated/ignorant to push left wing economics. The elders in the left movement go along with it because they think it appeals to the young. But because its bullshit it will end up destroying the left. Well it already has really.

Spot on . Gender bollox and critical race theory is just a bauble , a consolation prize. Sorry you can't have decent health , housing, schools and public transport- here have a pronoun. Take as many as you like. They're free. Vote Labour / Green

@CheeseMmmm

You are aware that on this issue, given it affects women and girls full stop. That the board has posters with loads of different views, from different countries etc?

The fact is that women, like men. Have a wide range of political views.

It feels like you assume that all posters on this board are or should be of the same view. Definite left (not even floating in middle), anti Tory. To care about the actions of the current govt (and past conservative govts I assume).

And then to come to chastise women for not being/ thinking how you expect them to.

Do you REALLY think women who have deep seated political views of the various left wing political philosophies.
Would think. Oh well so what I'll vote Tory.

If you believe that.. it's a really dodgy view of women really.

I thought what I made clear was that I DO accept people have a range of different views. I accept some people support what the Tories stand for on the economy, various social issues etc. even if I don't agree with them. But the erosion of democracy itself is a different matter because it's not just a question of whose policies you support, it's a question of preserving the PROCESS by which we can keep having that conversation, peacefully and meaningfully; by which other people can have a fair say and so can you if you happen to change your mind next time.

I wouldn't continue to support a Labour government that abused its power to make itself untouchable the way the current Tory one is doing. In fact I won't be voting Labour next time for that reason - because I believe Keir Starmer is exactly such an unprincipled authoritarian and will do nothing to reverse the process. I have a real problem with people who are willing to vote Tory despite it. It means that they don't just have different opinions from me, they're willing to see the system abused so their opinions can be imposed upon me without the right to a fair conversation and process.

I think identity politics has been adopted by the left and the young because they are too afraid/defeated/ignorant to push left wing economics. The elders in the left movement go along with it because they think it appeals to the young. But because its bullshit it will end up destroying the left. Well it already has really.

Spot on. Gender bollox and critical race theory is just a bauble , a consolation prize. Sorry you can't have decent health , housing, schools and public transport- here have a pronoun. Take as many as you like. They're free. Vote Labour/Green

But that's the diametric opposite of what's actually happened. Labour DID have solid, radical, carefully funded proposals for decent health, housing, schools and public transport in its last two manifestos, and were told people couldn't possibly vote for it because it was too much left wing economics.

Even if you take the opposite end of Labour, when it was actually in power - the Blair government did far more for all those things (except possibly housing) than the Tories ever did before or since, while simultaneously adopting "identity politics".

It's like people just really want a government that's going to attack identity politics with a force that reflects the anger they feel, so they spin this story that that's what equals left wing economics and standing up for the working class. Therefore Boris Johnson is a left wing prime minster and the Tories have made life great for the working class through a decade of austerity. And then don't seem to notice that that's not actually how it works.

Blair is up there alongside the worst prime ministers this country ever had.

@EricCartmansUnderpants

Blair is up there alongside the worst prime ministers this country ever had.

Worse than Thatcher and Major? Not a chance.

I don't agree. But we're all entitled to our opinion. As far as I'm concerned Blair caused much of the shit this country now finds itself in. An absolute failure. What a legacy he left. He should be in prison.

They are introducing photo ID for voting, to solve a supposed problem with impersonation that doesn't exist

Fifteentoes - do fascist dictatorships allow citizens to vote?

Things you are objecting to such as restricting protest and controlling the media are also practised by Communist governments - or is communist rule ok because it’s left wing?

If Labour are so catastrophically stupid they genuinely men can be women because ‘feelings’ then I have no confidence in their ability to implement any of their policies

If they don’t believe it but are just saying it because TRA are scary so beee kind and anyway just women then they are spineless cowards

Neither is a good look

I’ve only ever voted Labour & I live in bloody Liam fox’s constituency so chances of him being unseated are slim to bugger all. Id never vote for him but equally I won’t vote for the She/her Labour candidate we had last time so a spoiled paper it is

@Theeyeballsinthesky

If Labour are so catastrophically stupid they genuinely men can be women because ‘feelings’ then I have no confidence in their ability to implement any of their policies

If they don’t believe it but are just saying it because TRA are scary so beee kind and anyway just women then they are spineless cowards

Neither is a good look

I’ve only ever voted Labour & I live in bloody Liam fox’s constituency so chances of him being unseated are slim to bugger all. Id never vote for him but equally I won’t vote for the She/her Labour candidate we had last time so a spoiled paper it is

Yup, this.

Much to the bafflement and annoyance of my family, who think Lisa Nandy talks a lot of sense apart from on the trans issue and can't understand why I won't overlook it.

Well. Because to lock rapists up with vulnerable women on the grounds that they 'identify as' women, you're either sociopathically callous, contemptibly cowardly or worryingly stupid.

All of which mean you should be nowhere near government IMO.

Rhcp your brexit post is interesting.

This was another massive issue that was NOT party political. Leave/ stay opinion cut right across the political leanings of the voters. All the way through society.

The para that starts with the cnp bit below I find v strange. It reads as an interpretation of what happened based on individual view (bias) and a lot of it is just ???!!!.

'That’s what happened after Brexit when the politicians refused to do as the majority wanted and deliver Brexit. In order to get Brexit done......'

This is not a thread about brexit.

It's not even a thread where red/blue rights/ wrongs makes sense.

This issue is not party political.

It's about WOMEN AND GIRLS. All of us. ALL of us.

And it's up to us to keep on at it. Brave women speaking out. Bringing court cases. Getting info that the press will be interested in. Not letting up on any of it, from losing our ability to even reference us as ONE DISTINCT GROUP to not shutting up about prisons, hosps, schools, any of it.

Turning this, as we are so often prompted to for not good reasons, or we totally naturally move onto ourselves.

Is a DISTRACTION.

Political landscape in eg Sweden, USA, Canada, Germany are TOTALLY DIFFERENT.

This situation is ALREADY a disaster for women and children. In ALL countries it gets traction.

Whether broadly socialist, communist, nationalist, heavily influenced by religion, capitalist/ free market/ low tax... Etc etc.
This ideology FUCKS women and girls totally. With a big side helping of a whole load of shit across all sorts of things.

This is a distraction.

I'm English and I KNOW that none of the mainstream parties are interested, have our backs.

Because we're just women and girls. The envelope stuffers, the organisers, the army for the grunt work. Expected to toe the line, clap in the right places, wax lyrical when topic is something to do with caring, children, VAWG, all that stuff.

Thinking any party here will do anything other than not get involved at best, to actively screwing us at worst. Is naive. I know that's strong but there it is.

It's about male supremacy.

Sounds extreme?
Look how fucking far it got behind the scenes before many even had this on their radar. Look what's already happening. Happened. Sometimes has been happening for years. Quietly.

Males in women's prisons. For YEARS.

Males in women's NHS wards. For YEARS.

Totally inappropriate teaching materials in schools, mixed sex bogs sport etc. Schools not blinking an eye. No parental consultation often just done quietly.

Charities running things related to this inviting age groups like 13- 25.

All the things we know. Know now.

How do we know? Not because told, asked, informed. We know when someone somewhere FINDS OUT somehow. That's outrageous.

Arguing politics is easy. Ready made arguments accusations it's almost a script. Getting stuck in is familiar ground.

Focusing on women and girls, no framework, no go to arguments etc. Is REALLY HARD.

But if we're going to get anywhere then fuck red blue rich poor etc everything. It's about ALL women and girls irrespective of anything like that.

It needs to be done though or we are utterly fucked. Women and children. Always paired. For s reason. Because things like this women are the ones who say just NO.

sorry for rant.

Fifteentoes - do fascist dictatorships allow citizens to vote?

Sometimes, yes. The fascist government in Italy for example was elected in 1924 (with the help of a system guaranteeing a majority of seats to the largest minority party as long as they got 25% of the votes, so not unlike the distortion of our First Past The Post), and then went on to hold further elections in 1929 and 1934.

It's quite common for dictatorships of all stripes to "allow their citizens to vote"; it doesn't mean those votes are actually meaningful. People were allowed to vote throughout the history of Soviet Russia, for example.

The ruling classes of modern western "democracies" do of course have more subtle means of retaining hegemony than imposing a literal one-party state, which is one reason we don't quite live in a literal fascist dictatorship YET. But noone acquainted with the history of voter suppression in the USA, for example, could believe that the difference is that cut and dried.

And if you think attempting to elide the weaknesses of how democracy is enacted with actual fascism is hyperbole, I return to my earlier point about the USA. Trump, supported by many elected republican politicians, and a large number of the population, attempted and very nearly acheived an actual, real, Latin American fascist dictatorship style coup. As in armed thugs literally surrounding the white house like Mussolini's blackshirts. In the country that has always called itself the bastion of the free world.

The Tories are upper class Brits with long experience running an empire, so would never have Trump's crassness. It wouldn't work here and they don't need it. But that's just presentation, it doesn't mean the substance isn't the same. It's perfectly possible to "allow a vote" in which you've predetermined the parameters of that vote so that you can't possibly lose.

Things you are objecting to such as restricting protest and controlling the media are also practised by Communist governments - or is communist rule ok because it’s left wing?

I don't know where this is coming from. I abhor totalitarianism of all kinds, communist included. I'm not aware of ever having said anything to condone it.

Out of interest, does anybody know if Reform UK have a policy on trans rights vs women's rights that would be amenable to people here? They seem like the sort of party that ought to.

Would people consider voting for them to put pressure on the mainstream parties to adopt such a policy, in the same way votes for UKIP led to Brexit?

But in loads of 'democratic' countries, it boils down to pick a or b.

In USA the right is to Brits super hard right and the left is right. More or less. Socialism is a dirty word. Frying pan or fire?

A or b is - power stays with one of these two groups that switch who in charge sometimes. You can pick enormously wealthy old white geezer who is A, or enormously wealthy old white geezer who is B. (Exceptions... Very rare).

That's not a system which is responsive and open to anything in the way of serious change. Obviously.

Short of revolution, it's a fixed system.

And as for general public. Big change vv scary. Things trundle on. Wave flags for A/B. Have lots of impassioned bickering all over the place. Get A/B. Illusion of choice.

States have massive leeway to do what the fuck they all like anyway. And wtf courts, supreme court is POLITICAL. Erm...... Ok then

It's all shit.
It's all an illusion.
A bit better for X group. B bit better for Y.

Everywhere... I think pretty much? Not my area tbh.

And the point with this issue is that WOMEN are not really on the radar. Of any of them. Say nice words. When there's loads of bad press/ massive anger from women. Consider a sop to shut them up.

Or not. Nothing done is often the answer even when outrage is massive.

This issue will not get better unless women as a group act. That's to me at least, just a fact.

@Fifteentoes

The fact of people prioritising the issue of gender over the Tories' awfulness on so many other issues is one thing. I don't understand it, but hey ho.

But after how close the USA has just come - and is not out of the woods yet with the ongoing effects of Trump-appointed judges etc - after literally seeing the entire edifice nearly collapse under the weight of the lies, manipulation, pig-headed denial of due process and deliberately generated culture war -

How anybody can happily vote for the brazen and active undermining of democracy itself and its descent into fascism, is really beyond me.

God help us.

Your post is ridiculous. And insulting. And ignorant.