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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

If a general election was called, who would you vote for?

443 replies

Anothernamechange3 · 07/12/2021 22:42

Or really, who can I vote for? I don’t want to vote Tory, especially after today’s revelations. I also don’t feel happy voting Labour or Green, for reasons often discussed on this board. Is there a party you’d feel happy to vote to be in power if you had a chance to, say, tomorrow? Feeling pretty despondent

OP posts:
Unreasonabubble · 09/12/2021 21:22

I'm just here for the deletion message Grin

CheeseMmmm · 09/12/2021 21:25

@Fifteentoes

Out of interest, does anybody know if Reform UK have a policy on trans rights vs women's rights that would be amenable to people here? They seem like the sort of party that ought to.

Would people consider voting for them to put pressure on the mainstream parties to adopt such a policy, in the same way votes for UKIP led to Brexit?

Are you taking the piss?

Bloody hell.

Had a look this is farage and co.

You genuinely think they give a flying fuck about women's rights?

Have you got them mixed up with some other people?

If you want to know their views on this then I'm sure you can Google.

I did cos couldn't remember what they about.

Thought georgie g discourteous sex gang but no.

HAVE YOU HAD ENOUGH OF BAD SORTS DESECRATING OUR HALLOWED SHORES?

oh yeah right them.

I'm surprised they should be a viable choice for you. But your vote up to you.

Let us know what you find.

CheeseMmmm · 09/12/2021 21:28

I bet there's groups off the mainstream radar who are keen to protect (their) women.

I reckon with a bit of effort I could find a contact or 2. Got TOR etc. And a very very large local network. Someone always knows someone.

Would that be of interest 15? I mean if you'd vote for farage crew you're only s step away from I'm guessing a LOT of groups who like farage thoughts but think don't go anywhere near far enough...

Fifteentoes · 09/12/2021 21:33

@CheeseMmmm - they're certainly not a viable choice for me. But I'm not advocating voting ONLY on the basis of trans rights vs womens' rights and ignoring all other concerns.

Various posters on this thread have said (words to effect that) they don't care about anything that's wrong with the Tories on any other issue. They're the only party with any semblance of sanity regarding womens' sex-based rights, so they will vote for them.

Now, the Tories are not that distinct from other parties on that issue. A bit more "traditional", but it seems to vary a lot from one MP to another. I was just curious - if people could find a party that really, definitely, drew the line against wokedom, identity politics and trans rights: would they take the same attitude of voting for it regardless of what its other policies are.

If not, why not?

OldCrone · 09/12/2021 21:41

I was just curious - if people could find a party that really, definitely, drew the line against wokedom, identity politics and trans rights: would they take the same attitude of voting for it regardless of what its other policies are.

Are you thinking of a UK equivalent of the Republican party in the US?

Fifteentoes · 09/12/2021 21:42

Although to be fair, having had a look at the Reform UK website, I don't actually find them any more offensive than the Tories. I loathe the anti-immigrant rhetoric, but the Tories have fully embraced all that anyway. They have a lot of positive points about reforming the system itself - proportional representation, abolishing the House of Lords etc. - that I strongly agree with. On the key issue of preserving democracy that I mentioned earlier, they're opposite to and far better than the Tories.

Given that it looks like I'm going to have to be governed by bigots for the forseeable future on this strange little island, I'd probably prefer these bigots to the current bigots.

CheeseMmmm · 09/12/2021 22:04

Fifteen.

You have recently reiterated that you know people have different political views.

Given that I posted earlier about this topic attracting loads of women- from different countries, with different politics, backgrounds, beliefs about loads of important topics. Which I think you acknowledge.

Then it's a given there will be women who are/ have been long-term conservative voters.

And voters who are not allied to left or right and go with what they think when it's election time.

And tbh women with no interest in politics one way or the other but are interested in this issue.

Given that, I don't understand why you are so totally pissed off and confused and feel betrayed if any/ many of those women vote Tory.

This issue is about women.

Politics is the board or AIBU if you want to have a good old fashioned row with Tories.

Andante57 · 09/12/2021 22:05

I'm not aware of ever having said anything to condone it

No you haven’t said anything to condone it. However I think 3 people on this thread have said they are going to vote communist at the next election and you haven’t, afaik, objected to this.

CheeseMmmm · 09/12/2021 22:11

'Given that it looks like I'm going to have to be governed by bigots for the forseeable future on this strange little island, I'd probably prefer these bigots to the current bigots.'

Just interested in your wording, are you from UK?

Why strange?

And you've forgotten that we are not an island. Also about devolution.

We are more than one island, I mean apart from all the islands in Scotland. Northern Ireland is in UK.

Scotland NI have different political parties in power. Scotland and NI have loads of their own laws etc.

If you're going to throw around bigot, then you really need to NOT overlook that the UK has 4 countries with own culture identities etc and it's really crappy to overlook that.

CheeseMmmm · 09/12/2021 22:17

Really pisses me off when posters do that.

All the people, the history between the countries, the ongoing issues.

To some (a pretty good amount) of people in Scotland, Wales and NI.
To do this is insensitive, ignorant, annoying/enraging and also England/London centric.

Like, you know. The Tories. Who go as far often as forgetting about anything or anyone north of Oxford university.

CheeseMmmm · 09/12/2021 22:24

Why shouldn't people vote for who they want?

I mean the Communists aren't going to get s landslide are they! So I mean so what.

Plenty will vote for farage. Nothing you can do about that. And it's up to them isn't it.

I've voted all sorts. I mean I'm in a very safe Tory constituency been Tory i don't know but at least 40 years.

So if I vote for (and given safe seat would have not quite old enough!) the natural law party (anyone remember them?) then that's what I'll sodding well do, thanks.

CheeseMmmm · 09/12/2021 22:35

Also 15, the conservatives have been in government loads.

A LOT of people vote for them.

It's really juvenile to point at ALL those involved in or who voted for them and say BIGOTS. It's the current equivalent of a 6yo saying 'you all smell'.

I recommend a book called 'don't think of an elephant' by George lakoff.

It's about USA but I found it really useful a couple of decades ago to help me with a long-term puzzle I couldn't solve.

IE why do so many lovely people I know vote for a party I see as appalling in every way?

It's was a really difficult question for me. As like you I was very goodies/baddies when I was young.

Bottom line is. You can't effectively oppose those you disagree with if you don't understand why they feel as they do.

Yelling that they are all basically evil is not the best strategy. (And for niche groups who you think basically are evil I'm not sure it's worthwhile even bothering to do that.)

ArabellaScott · 09/12/2021 23:02

They are introducing photo ID for voting, to solve a supposed problem with impersonation that doesn't exist. Which will likely reduce the number of poor, young, itinerant, migrant etc. people able to vote. Who tend to vote Labour. What a coincidence. As well as overseeing boundary changes to increase the already-existing extent to which the Tories need fewer votes than Labour to win more seats.

I don't know enough about the ID thing. The boundaries are dubious, yes.

They are steadily challenging and undermining various structures that exist to call the govt. to account and provide legal checks and balances upon them. From the electoral commission to the parliamentary standards authority.

Would like to hear more on this, please.

They are interfering with the supposed impartiality of the BBC and getting Tory donors and high supporters into key positions. They already have direct contol over most of the rest of the media, but that's not enough apparently.

Some might say the BBC was previously 'captured' by the left. I actually feel it does a fairly good job of pissing everyone off for most of the time, which is what it ought to do. Also, did they succeed in getting donors into those positions? I thought thingummy's bid had failed?

They are introducing the police crime and sentencing act to place far greater restrictions on the legal right to protest and effectively give police the right to prevent people protesting for the flimsiest of reasons.

The right to protest has been massively undermined since the Iraq war protests, millions marching and no fucking effect. Kettling and other tactics have quashed and hampered and de-toothed our right to protest already. Those were brought in under Labour. So, while I share your concern at a more authoritarian police approach, I don't thikn this is a Tory issue so much as a neo-liberal one.

They have massively abused the power of government to hand publicly funded contracts during the covid epidemic to their own mates, many with no due process of tender or monitoring of value.

Yes. This is straightforward crookery. I don't see that as fascism.

I did say "voting for the DESCENT INTO fasicsm", not that it was actually a facsist government already. But abuse of democratic process to make the government effectively dictatorial without meaningful chance of being removed; the focusing of all power in that government without a meaningful legislature to contain its excesses; government control of the media and dissemination of information; the repression of protest; not to mention the use of minorities (benefit claimants, immigrants) as targets for popular aggression to unite enough of the populace behind them - these are the absolute, classic features of fascism. They are basically the definition of the word.

I think you're mixing some tendencies of neo-liberal/late capitalist societies all up and blaming them on the Tories. I do share concerns about civil liberties and agree they need to be rigorously defended. If only we had an organisation like Amnesty or Liberty who were still actually clear-headed enough to tackle them instead of spending time telling women they are second class citizens with no right to complain.

What would you call it?

Opportunist disaster capitalism?

ArabellaScott · 09/12/2021 23:02

Geezo, sorry for the essay.

CheeseMmmm · 09/12/2021 23:17

Just an aside-

And I mean threads move on obv that's cool

Just realised that the sex/ gender thing didn't really get much airtime!

It's interesting though to read.

I find some of the comments so odd.

This board regularly has posters chastising posters for voting Tory usually when no one has said anything to do with that!

The assumption that on this board that will cause doubt in views about sex/gender is bizarre.

Why assume all posters on this board are long term total lefties?

Why think that saying you're 'aligning' with MEANIES will shame posters into compliance with labour including gender > sex?

Why is can't vote for anyone I've always voted labour taken as... I'm totally voting Tory!..????

And anyway aren't we all supposed to be hard right Christian fundamentalists?

It's all a bit desperate tbh.

rhowton · 09/12/2021 23:30

Conservative... mainly because they know I'm a woman...

girafferafferaffe · 09/12/2021 23:37

I have no idea. I don't want to vote for any of them.

Fifteentoes · 09/12/2021 23:40

@Andante57

I'm not aware of ever having said anything to condone it

No you haven’t said anything to condone it. However I think 3 people on this thread have said they are going to vote communist at the next election and you haven’t, afaik, objected to this.

I honestly didn't notice, sorry. Must have skimmed past those posts.

But (a) there's obviously a difference between voting for a communist party that stands no chance whatsoever of even getting one MP elected, and voting for a proto-fascist party that is almost certain to form the next government, thereby helping to solidify that certainty.

And (b) communism is not by definition totalitarian. I'd need to know the policies of the party in question, and what exactly they mean by communism, before judging whether they're democratic or not.

PickAChew · 09/12/2021 23:41

[quote Fifteentoes]@CheeseMmmm - they're certainly not a viable choice for me. But I'm not advocating voting ONLY on the basis of trans rights vs womens' rights and ignoring all other concerns.

Various posters on this thread have said (words to effect that) they don't care about anything that's wrong with the Tories on any other issue. They're the only party with any semblance of sanity regarding womens' sex-based rights, so they will vote for them.

Now, the Tories are not that distinct from other parties on that issue. A bit more "traditional", but it seems to vary a lot from one MP to another. I was just curious - if people could find a party that really, definitely, drew the line against wokedom, identity politics and trans rights: would they take the same attitude of voting for it regardless of what its other policies are.

If not, why not?[/quote]
And many, like me, have said we're completely stuck. My boys are disabled so tory would never be a comfortable vote but nor is anyone else, at the moment.

Fifteentoes · 09/12/2021 23:41

@KimikosNightmare

Your post is ridiculous. And insulting. And ignorant.

Who was it insulting towards?

Fifteentoes · 09/12/2021 23:48

@CheeseMmmm

*Given that, I don't understand why you are so totally pissed off and confused and feel betrayed if any/ many of those women vote Tory."

We don't need to keep flogging this horse, but just to be clear if I haven't been already: I was only making the point that there is a fundamental difference, of kind, between voting for a party that someone else's values happen to disagree with, and voting for a party that is undermining or threatening the very process of voting and democracy itself.

You can argue (as some have) that I'm exaggerating and they're not really doing that. I guess we'll see (as they're almost certain to win). But that was all I meant.

Fifteentoes · 10/12/2021 00:02

@CheeseMmmm - a lot to unpick there. In no particular order:

Yes I'm from the UK, but have travelled a lot and lived in other countries, and feel very out of step with the way British social and political culture is going (if that wasn't obvious! Smile).

I specifically didn't call all the people (or even some of the people) who have voted Tory bigots. What I said was that we're being governed by bigots - ie the tendency in the Tory party itself that is in the ascendant. I understand that people of many kinds vote for it out of various different motivations.

Although to be really clear, I'm not sure how strongly bigotry actually does figure in what the Tories are about (whereas it's more obviously a factor for Farage and the Brexit party / Reform UK). I think people like Johnson are more pragmatic than that - he worked out that he can get power by appealing to bigotry and by cooperating with bigots, but I'm not sure he's actually motivated by bigotry. He's probably just motivated by power.

I understand I'm not in the political majority here, and my views probably stand out a bit, but I suspect you might be reading what I say and jumping to conclusions based on some current trends in politics (eg middle class lefties thinking all Tories are racist). If you're going to take issue with something I've said I'd just politely ask you to check that it's what I actually said.

Fifteentoes · 10/12/2021 00:15

@ArabellaScott

I think you're mixing some tendencies of neo-liberal/late capitalist societies all up and blaming them on the Tories. I do share concerns about civil liberties and agree they need to be rigorously defended. If only we had an organisation like Amnesty or Liberty who were still actually clear-headed enough to tackle them instead of spending time telling women they are second class citizens with no right to complain.

There's the weird imagined mutual exclusivity again. Even if we accept for simplicity the way you've phrased the last part: what makes you think Amnesty are not capable of doing both those things at once? (when they quite clearly do).

Fifteentoes · 10/12/2021 00:49

@CheeseMmmm

I take your point about getting off the track of voting and women’s rights particularly, and I do tend to get carried away with this stuff, so I’ll drop it there and move on.

To answer the question, I don’t have a damn clue who I’ll vote for!

CheeseMmmm · 10/12/2021 01:21

'I understand I'm not in the political majority here, and my views probably stand out a bit,'

How do you know? I can't remember the whole thread but I'm fairly sure only a few posters have said who they will vote for.

Plenty have said they will spoil ballot,/ can't vote for anyone etc.

For me your posts stand out not for the political views you express but how you express them.

I mean saying ooh reform what about them? That was pointed, at who, just any and all other posters on thread? And it was unwarranted. And tbh just a nasty thing to post.

'I specifically didn't call all the people (or even some of the people) who have voted Tory bigots. What I said was that we're being governed by bigots'.

That's pretty wriggly.
Anyone who voted for them at last election- and they got a landslide win,- they knew what they were getting.
Bozza, JRM, Cummings. I mean it's a few years back. I CBA to dig but it was hardly secret what they were like.
So. They voted for bigots. Your description. You don't accept that very strongly implies those who voted for them are as well, or at least don't mind about that?

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