BBC 100 Women List - Gender is contentious

[highame]

I'm sure there was a thread but I can't find anywhere. Did it get deleted. Anyway, here's a good article by James Kirkup

www.spectator.co.uk/article/gender-is-contentious-the-bbc-is-pretending-it-isn-t

This is yet another fine article from James Kirkup
The continuation of this argument is that including transwomen in the category of women is harmful to natal women and against the interests of natal women. These harms can take many forms. In law and policy, the 'transwomen are women' approach can mean the erosion or removal of boundaries around single-sex spaces. In culture and society, 'transwomen are women' diverts attention from — and potentially devalues — the unique experiences that natal women have based on their female biology and socialisation.

And when finite resources are allocated, 'transwomen are women' means that some things that might otherwise have been allocated to natal women are given to people who were born male. It is a simple statement of fact that because the BBC awarded some places on its 100 Women list to transwomen, those places — and the status and acclaim they bring — cannot be given to natal women.

He has a fine way with words

(And sexist men would hate it. But wouldn't really be able to express that too loudly as what objection could there be?
Men are being celebrated. For doing amazing things.
Hard to say the wrong sort of men and the wrong sort of things without sounding like a total pillock!)

@HelplesslyHoping

Ah another thread aimed to bash women who are more successful than the commenters. All 100 women deserve their place on the list, only men and misogynists seem to disagree

How is that relevant? Probably several thousand women deserve a place on that list. 97 of them received one.

'HelplesslyHoping

Ah another thread aimed to bash women who are more successful than the commenters. All 100 women deserve their place on the list, only men and misogynists seem to disagree'

A really interesting comment.

When I looked at the list and read about some of the women and girls.

The words that came to mind were brave, determined, strong, inspirational. Words like that.

The word that came to your mind when you looked through the list and maybe read about some of the women was successful.

I'd be interested to understand why that word is the one that felt most apt to you.

Not one of the posters here said anything to “bash” women. They celebrated, commended and honoured the women who made the list, and indeed those who did not. No one in any way seemed jealous or resentful of the women on the list.

Celebrating, honouring and commending women does not include men/males/whichever we are permitted to say - it simply does not apply to them.

Overnight I was thinking that why on Earth does the BBC feel the need to compile lists like this? Leave random and inevitably politically biased lists to the independent media, not the national broadcaster.
On the subject of ageing, it’s a good thing that in many cases a sense of humour is one of the last things to go.

Please to see this one made it through the night 💪

Me too WarriorN I'm staggered but the restraint is palpable

Incidentally the reactions and anger from one, the other, or sometimes all sides. And that whatever done it's always going to be wrong. And this is such a fraught topic with a decent amount of coverage.

The BBC should never have stepped into being a 'leader' of opinion, which it has tried to do in many areas. Beeb needs to put more money into finding where (in general) areas of contention are Trans Brexit, Israel and many others and do really thorough investigations free of bias. If the Beeb finds it necessary to pretend there's nothing to see, then it is clear something isn't quite right. Taking sides (or the appearance) is not where the BBC should be.

After a good nights sleep but with the usual bowel disturbance, my teeth are in and I'm ready for action (and that my friends is the most exercise I will do today). I have laughed at myself and my situation for years. I don't intend stopping now. So to all you old female farts, onward and upward and laugh out loud cause it ain't gonna get any better - feminism in action

When you do laugh out loud, take precautions

Noted.

@FuckeryOmbudsman

'Old lady moment'

WTAF - ageism and sexism in one comment

Please do not write off older women in this way. It's not light-hearted or funny. It's everyday sexism and casual ageism

I don't know about that. It is a known fact that menopause affects your word finding and memory. Your comment may in fact be the denial of experiences of natal women - caused by their biology - which James was cautioning against.

Great article.
Can anyone link to an interesting Twitter thread ?

@Taswama

Great article. Can anyone link to an interesting Twitter thread ?

The author is on Twitter. Did you check for a link when you read the article? It will normally have an option to start your own Twitter thread.

But you should be able to find loads of interesting people who have a variety of interesting threads responding and commenting to the article.

The Mail has picked the story up.

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10285079/BBC-includes-trans-women-list-100-inspiring-influential-women-2021.html

I think that Joan Rivers, Victoria Wood, Liz Smith and Julie Walters could / can carry off an old lady joke. Everyone else sounds like an arse. This is peer reviewed research so don't blame me, blame the science.

But thank you for the thread. I was lurking yesterday but not posting much (which I do sometimes) and it was most instructive. James Kirkup seems like a decent guy so I'm sure it won't be lost on him that he is allowed to talk about this while we are not.

I'm definitely an arse

@CheeseMmmm

I'm not impressed with the old lady thing either.

One thing to say fgs the older I get the more whatever.

Another thing to apply whatever not great thing to a whole group esp one that already is not... Thought of in a positive way a lot of the time!

Do old men get this as a group?
Old man moment? Don't think I've heard of it.

(I have a characteristic that is often attached to something not great that's said a lot often in my company/ hearing and it fucks me right off! Has done since it became a thing to say.
That may make me extra irritated by this stuff!).

Never mind the decorous 'lady'. "Try being an old woman".

Germaine Greer when asked whether what she said might be felt by some to be hurtful: “People are hurtful to me all the time,"Try being an old woman, I mean, for goodness sake. People get hurt all the time. I'm not about to walk on eggshells.”

Part of me thinks that we should be highlighting the women that did make it on to the list ... like the Mail has... and celebrating them!!

@ChateauMargaux

Part of me thinks that we should be highlighting the women that did make it on to the list ... like the Mail has... and celebrating them!!

Yes we should. However, like with Laurel Hubbard, it is very hard to not feel very aggrieved when males have taken the places that should be reserved for females.

I do agree.. I just think that the 2 are getting more press than the 98... and definitely more than 100 would get ...

That's a great, thoughtful article.

The flying monkeys will not distract us from commenting on this list. There are MEN, on the list of WOMEN. One man would be too many. And we don't care. BBC, that you claim that you have sneaked them through, under the radar, in the past. In what way does that make it any 'better'?

We women are angry. We are so angry.

The BBC should be impartial in this 'debate'. In fact, they should be letting us have a debate, not silencing women. But the BBC are here firmly nailing their colours to the mast - they are coming down on the side of men.

Men are not women, BBC.

Bump.

@CheeseMmmm

Incidentally the reactions and anger from one, the other, or sometimes all sides. And that whatever done it's always going to be wrong. And this is such a fraught topic with a decent amount of coverage.

Is imo why things like the Brits are moving to a single award rather than man/ woman.

Now as well calls for other genders esp non binary where's their group don't fit either.

I mean they want to focus on the prize, get nominees etc, arrange venue/ presenter/s, judges, publicity etc etc I mean loads goes in even for less big famous things.

The last thing they want is to have to spend time thinking how to do it to cause least anger, how to avoid accusations of not being inclusive to non binary people, consider possible strong reactions from nominees prob in press. Boycott even?

And so on.

Make it just best X? Job done

Obv with things for women only it's a different ball game.

In ten years time when nobody who doesn't have a penis has won the X award will they be willing to reinstate the female category or will they insist that if women were good enough they would win the X award and of course there is no misogyny because only six of ten winners with a penis call themselves men?

Yet again reflecting on the prescience* on part of Catatonia 20 years ago that at the time seemed quite incomprehensible…

• Not, obviously, as specific as make-up of this list, that really would be a case for Mulder & Scully