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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

BBC 100 Women List - Gender is contentious

168 replies

highame · 07/12/2021 16:20

I'm sure there was a thread but I can't find anywhere. Did it get deleted. Anyway, here's a good article by James Kirkup

www.spectator.co.uk/article/gender-is-contentious-the-bbc-is-pretending-it-isn-t

This is yet another fine article from James Kirkup
The continuation of this argument is that including transwomen in the category of women is harmful to natal women and against the interests of natal women. These harms can take many forms. In law and policy, the 'transwomen are women' approach can mean the erosion or removal of boundaries around single-sex spaces. In culture and society, 'transwomen are women' diverts attention from — and potentially devalues — the unique experiences that natal women have based on their female biology and socialisation.

And when finite resources are allocated, 'transwomen are women' means that some things that might otherwise have been allocated to natal women are given to people who were born male. It is a simple statement of fact that because the BBC awarded some places on its 100 Women list to transwomen, those places — and the status and acclaim they bring — cannot be given to natal women.

He has a fine way with words

OP posts:
AlfonsoTheUnrepentant · 07/12/2021 17:33

They allow us to say that transwomen are men. (I think they do anyway)

Only in certain circumstances. I had a post deleted over the weekend for saying "transwomen are men" and was told that it wasn't in the spirit of civil debate. MN have further said that they will address that statement of fact on a case-by-case basis.

BehindTheFridge · 07/12/2021 17:35

Refreshing.

RoaringtoLangClegintheDark · 07/12/2021 17:36

I notice that as well as taking sides by including biologically male people in a list of women and therefore proclaiming their belief in the ideology that TWAW, the quote from one of those biologically male people baldly contains an overt piece of ideologically driven propaganda, to wit:

”transgender people, already the most vulnerable on Earth”

Again with the “most vulnerable” trope. Fabricated because it’s just not true, not borne out by the statistics (or the real life experience of the vast majority of women) in any way. Misogynistic because repeating this baseless claim denies and diverts attention away from the very real vulnerability of women and girls, ie biologically female people.

Vulnerability which the compilers of the list must be all too well aware of, seeing as they’ve concentrated so much on Afghanistan, a country where women’s and girls’ rights and lives are once again viciously circumscribed by the Taliban because they are biologically female.

Not to mention the myriad ways in which women and girls are still massively vulnerable here in the western world and the UK.

Earlier today I watched an interview with a young woman who survived the Ecole Polytechnique massacre, five years after the event, and she said that what it taught her is that she is a woman.

Prior to that, she had thought equality had been achieved and her being female made no difference to anything in her life. Being the victim/survivor of such grotesque male violence against women made her realise how fragile, to use her word, she as a woman actually is. How vulnerable we as women are.

This incessant repetition of the lie that biologically male trans people as a class are more vulnerable than biologically female people as a class, more vulnerable than anyone else, is gaslighting of the first order.

The BBC has no business promoting this lie, a lie which is often used to justify eroding women’s boundaries and rights, and used to manipulate women into believing they must sacrifice their own rights and needs, and those of other women, for the benefit of these “most vulnerable” of people: a lie that directly harms women, the people this list is supposed to be celebrating.

Kirkup is right, it looks like the BBC has quite a way to go yet before it can be said to not be taking sides on this issue, recent apparent advances notwithstanding.

AsTreesWalking · 07/12/2021 17:37

Artichoke except that the 'plastered' scene is genuinely funny, whereas...

Good thing I read PPs or I might have said what I thought but didn't gave time to post on an earlier iteration!

Lovelyricepudding · 07/12/2021 17:38

@BehindTheFridge

Refreshing.
To see if the thread is still here?
AlfonsoTheUnrepentant · 07/12/2021 17:41

To see if the thread is still here?

Given as how the poster's first and only post (other than the one-word post in this thread) was on 7 December in AIBU, I doubt it.

Theunamedcat · 07/12/2021 17:45

I'm not going to comment how I feel I've tried that a few times today its not gone well

letsallchant · 07/12/2021 17:53

Interesting to see that this is where the line is drawn.

SpindlesWinterWhorl · 07/12/2021 18:06

Thank you for the link, OP.

allmywhat · 07/12/2021 18:06

Is the BBC list a list of people who feel feminine? Seems pretty regressive? Regardless, they seem to have accidentally used the wrong label for this group of people.

I’m sure it’s not a list of feminine-feeling people. I doubt they checked with the activists in Afghanistan whether they have ladysouls. It would be downright insulting to women in those circumstances to imply they are women because they identify that way.

It’s a list of people who have impressive achievements and… uh, breathe air and eat food? There’s no commonality.

Blackandwhitehorse · 07/12/2021 18:08

Well I made my complaint with language which would no doubt get this thread deleted. Still ideologically under stonewalls grip aren’t they.

Blackandwhitehorse · 07/12/2021 18:08

I asked them to define woman 😂 they have to respond don’t they? I look forward to their response.

Artichokeleaves · 07/12/2021 18:10

@allmywhat

Is the BBC list a list of people who feel feminine? Seems pretty regressive? Regardless, they seem to have accidentally used the wrong label for this group of people.

I’m sure it’s not a list of feminine-feeling people. I doubt they checked with the activists in Afghanistan whether they have ladysouls. It would be downright insulting to women in those circumstances to imply they are women because they identify that way.

It’s a list of people who have impressive achievements and… uh, breathe air and eat food? There’s no commonality.

That is an excellent point.

Did the BBC carefully consult all 97 mentioned women to ensure that they identified as women? Or did they assume their gender?

Because if not, frankly, it shows that they don't believe themselves in what they're signalling.

Lovelyricepudding · 07/12/2021 18:11

@RoaringtoLangClegintheDark

I notice that as well as taking sides by including biologically male people in a list of women and therefore proclaiming their belief in the ideology that TWAW, the quote from one of those biologically male people baldly contains an overt piece of ideologically driven propaganda, to wit:

”transgender people, already the most vulnerable on Earth”

Again with the “most vulnerable” trope. Fabricated because it’s just not true, not borne out by the statistics (or the real life experience of the vast majority of women) in any way. Misogynistic because repeating this baseless claim denies and diverts attention away from the very real vulnerability of women and girls, ie biologically female people.

Vulnerability which the compilers of the list must be all too well aware of, seeing as they’ve concentrated so much on Afghanistan, a country where women’s and girls’ rights and lives are once again viciously circumscribed by the Taliban because they are biologically female.

Not to mention the myriad ways in which women and girls are still massively vulnerable here in the western world and the UK.

Earlier today I watched an interview with a young woman who survived the Ecole Polytechnique massacre, five years after the event, and she said that what it taught her is that she is a woman.

Prior to that, she had thought equality had been achieved and her being female made no difference to anything in her life. Being the victim/survivor of such grotesque male violence against women made her realise how fragile, to use her word, she as a woman actually is. How vulnerable we as women are.

This incessant repetition of the lie that biologically male trans people as a class are more vulnerable than biologically female people as a class, more vulnerable than anyone else, is gaslighting of the first order.

The BBC has no business promoting this lie, a lie which is often used to justify eroding women’s boundaries and rights, and used to manipulate women into believing they must sacrifice their own rights and needs, and those of other women, for the benefit of these “most vulnerable” of people: a lie that directly harms women, the people this list is supposed to be celebrating.

Kirkup is right, it looks like the BBC has quite a way to go yet before it can be said to not be taking sides on this issue, recent apparent advances notwithstanding.

This
Binglebong · 07/12/2021 18:32

@HelplesslyHoping

Ah another thread aimed to bash women who are more successful than the commenters. All 100 women deserve their place on the list, only men and misogynists seem to disagree
I am not male nor am I a misogynist. And yet I feel only 97 of them belong on that list, from what I can see here I am not the only non-male non-misogynist who feels that way.

As a list of 100 admirable people I might feel otherwise (I haven't looked into all of them so don't know for sure.)

BettyFilous · 07/12/2021 18:40

Bumping for the evening crowd. Catch it while you can!

TurquoiseBaubles · 07/12/2021 19:06

Is the Site Stuff thread still there? It was heating up beautifully when I last saw it.

borntobequiet · 07/12/2021 19:06

Bumping in a slightly doddery old-ladyish fashion.

Clymene · 07/12/2021 19:08

The BBC's list of 'women' certainly does bring all the monitors to the yard.

I can't remember such egregious use of the report button in ages.

I'm not sure if James's penis or the fact he's writing in a respected national journal will save him from the deletion hammer. I guess time will tell.

FuckeryOmbudsman · 07/12/2021 19:09

@borntobequiet

Bumping in a slightly doddery old-ladyish fashion.
How nice of you.

Is it really OK take the piss out of those who comment on lazy speech habits which serve only to be dismissive of older people, and in thus case specifically older women?

Or should older women be silent, kniow their place and not speak up?

Runningupthecurtains · 07/12/2021 19:10

I know what I want to say but I really don't want to be responsible for the thread being deleted. On the other hand what is the point of a thread where one side of the debate can't say what they want to say?

Franca123 · 07/12/2021 19:13

Yeah the site stuff one is pretty fiesty. I'm basically furious and gone a little mad over there.

SpringCrocus · 07/12/2021 19:15

Excellent 97 women list, BBC

Clymene · 07/12/2021 19:16

@FuckeryOmbudsman - I think you've mislaid your irony detector.

FuckeryOmbudsman · 07/12/2021 19:17

[quote Clymene]@FuckeryOmbudsman - I think you've mislaid your irony detector. [/quote]
Thank you.