BBC 100 Women List - Gender is contentious

[highame]

I'm sure there was a thread but I can't find anywhere. Did it get deleted. Anyway, here's a good article by James Kirkup

www.spectator.co.uk/article/gender-is-contentious-the-bbc-is-pretending-it-isn-t

This is yet another fine article from James Kirkup
The continuation of this argument is that including transwomen in the category of women is harmful to natal women and against the interests of natal women. These harms can take many forms. In law and policy, the 'transwomen are women' approach can mean the erosion or removal of boundaries around single-sex spaces. In culture and society, 'transwomen are women' diverts attention from — and potentially devalues — the unique experiences that natal women have based on their female biology and socialisation.

And when finite resources are allocated, 'transwomen are women' means that some things that might otherwise have been allocated to natal women are given to people who were born male. It is a simple statement of fact that because the BBC awarded some places on its 100 Women list to transwomen, those places — and the status and acclaim they bring — cannot be given to natal women.

He has a fine way with words

I'm just coming on to add my voice... we have to discuss this.. otherwise other people who feel that women's lists were set up to address the inequalities between the sexes and that ensuring that they remain in place for natal females is important will look for these discussions and find themselves 'alone' in their thoughts.

I've read this thread and the Site Stuff thread. I've come to the conclusion that it must be statements like "X shouldn't be on that list because X is a man" that cause the problem with moderation.

If that's the case is it because MN are somehow legally liable for having allowed the statement to stand if X is no longer legally a man? (For example)

Facebook calls itself a platform not a publisher for this very reason, is it different for MN? Does MN have stricter standards than FB, is it because MN is UK based maybe?

Honest question!

If that's the case is it because MN are somehow legally liable for having allowed the statement to stand if X is no longer legally a man? (For example)

Maya's case makes it clear that simply stating this does not amount to harassment and is allowed.

@FlyingOink

I've read this thread and the Site Stuff thread. I've come to the conclusion that it must be statements like "X shouldn't be on that list because X is a man" that cause the problem with moderation.

If that's the case is it because MN are somehow legally liable for having allowed the statement to stand if X is no longer legally a man? (For example)

Facebook calls itself a platform not a publisher for this very reason, is it different for MN? Does MN have stricter standards than FB, is it because MN is UK based maybe?

Honest question!

Site stuff one is gone now just this one left I believe

Site stuff one still up for me How to discuss BBC 100 women list? www.mumsnet.com/Talk/site_stuff/4420161-How-to-discuss-BBC-100-women-list

In my opinion the BBC (Biased Blokes Cartel) have published the top 98 women.

@Ritasueandbobtoo9

In my opinion the BBC (Biased Blokes Cartel) have published the top 98 women.

No more than 97 women on that list

Who is the third transwoman? Apart from Iman and Alba?

Twitter is all about #BBC98women so I am struck that MN keeps talking about 97. It’s a sad shame that we now scrutinise women for the outliers these days.

@FlyingOink

I've read this thread and the Site Stuff thread. I've come to the conclusion that it must be statements like "X shouldn't be on that list because X is a man" that cause the problem with moderation.

If that's the case is it because MN are somehow legally liable for having allowed the statement to stand if X is no longer legally a man? (For example)

Facebook calls itself a platform not a publisher for this very reason, is it different for MN? Does MN have stricter standards than FB, is it because MN is UK based maybe?

Honest question!

Facebook is currently under a specific section of the US Telecommunications Act giving immunity to providers for online content. No idea about the equivalent situation for the UK. www.google.com/amp/s/www.brookings.edu/blog/techtank/2021/05/14/section-230-reform-deserves-careful-and-focused-consideration/amp/

I don't understand why we cant discuss it either for all the reasons stated in Jame's excellent article.

GrumpyPanda thank you

If a natal woman identifies as non-binary do TRAs still accept that she is a woman and would she be allowed on this list? What about a non-binary natal man?

@WarriorN

There's been more threads than Covid variants on this today

🙄 😲 😆 🤧

I would assume that there is a list of criteria for gaining a place on such a list and would guess it would be a women who has done something ground breaking despite being disadvantaged as a women, or is fighting for the rights of women who are being discriminated against because they are female etc.
To include other people who do not fit these criteria ,admirable though they may be for fighting against the discrimination they face because of their gender non conformity, seems to me to diminish the achievements of both of these very different disadvantaged groups.

Good article, I don’t understand Mumsnet HQ. If people aren’t able to discuss these issues respectfully on a public forum, it builds resentment.

There are two, maybe three men on that list. They are not women. Why are they on the list?

Not seen the list will look in a min.

Lists like this in general make me feel rather inadequate because it's exceptional people who have done amazing things and I've never heard of most of them.

Will have a look.

Incidentally the reactions and anger from one, the other, or sometimes all sides. And that whatever done it's always going to be wrong. And this is such a fraught topic with a decent amount of coverage.

Is imo why things like the Brits are moving to a single award rather than man/ woman.

Now as well calls for other genders esp non binary where's their group don't fit either.

I mean they want to focus on the prize, get nominees etc, arrange venue/ presenter/s, judges, publicity etc etc I mean loads goes in even for less big famous things.

The last thing they want is to have to spend time thinking how to do it to cause least anger, how to avoid accusations of not being inclusive to non binary people, consider possible strong reactions from nominees prob in press. Boycott even?

And so on.

Make it just best X? Job done

Obv with things for women only it's a different ball game.

@highame

WTAF - ageism and sexism in one comment and proud of it. In fact I just had a second old lady moment, having to get my specs to read your comment. Eyes getting tired just before brandy time.

All through the thread I'm going to continue to have old lady moments

Clean up in aisle 3?

Even with his fine writing and beautifully made points, we’re still at the stage where he’s saying ‘natal’ women.

I'm not impressed with the old lady thing either.

One thing to say fgs the older I get the more whatever.

Another thing to apply whatever not great thing to a whole group esp one that already is not... Thought of in a positive way a lot of the time!

Do old men get this as a group?
Old man moment? Don't think I've heard of it.

(I have a characteristic that is often attached to something not great that's said a lot often in my company/ hearing and it fucks me right off! Has done since it became a thing to say.
That may make me extra irritated by this stuff!).

Incontinent (urine or bowels?)
Loss of cognitive function

And if needing reading glasses makes you an old lady that's what about 40 and up! Blimey.

'Senior moment' is sex neutral I think?

This is Feminism isn't it?

Anyway looked at list and thought.

A good thing for the BBC maybe would be to do 3? Stagger through year or something?

Female human types face different issues to trans males.
Eg in one it said about a trans woman getting lashes for homosexuality. That would I'm sure have been male homosexuality. Shit. But different shit. Pretending we have the same problems is s constantly repeated obvious untruth.

Around the world being LGBT etc is still illegal, socially unacceptable to the point of massive risk of harm etc. Things like-
Death penalty in some countries
Lashing/ stoning / imprisonment
Incarceration without trial
Ostracism from community/ family
Corrective
Violence including murder
And more I mean terrible.

A separate list for LGBT+ activism etc the sort of things the women have done, in areas where it's incredibly dangerous, I would be interested for sure.

And don't freak out. One for men working, agitating, really helping in countries where things are grim. Not the money makers, the presidents, the actors, the tech billionaires. But the men around the world at the sharp end themselves. Have read things about things like- a man who found a way to make sanitary pads out of things being discarded and gave them free in area where like gold dust.
Would be such a difference and a good one to celebrate ordinary men doing tangible things for no other reason than to help.
Having these stories about men doing amazing things not to do with sport money etc. Would be a really positive alternative view of male success to the usual stuff about men and success.

I'm going to get clobbered