Zara - male bodies in female changing room

[BoreOfWhabylon]

An unimpressed Editor-at-large of the MoS was also there

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10275757/CHARLOTTE-GRIFFITHS-facing-dilemma.html

[quote jewel1968]@EricCartmansUnderpants my point is you would not know they are male. Or you could not be sure.[/quote]
We're back to trying to niggle female boundaries away from inconveniencing males.

Look. You get your kit off in front of whomever you want. Have mixed sex changing and enjoy yourself, I'm thrilled that you're fine with this.

I'm not. I want female only. I do not care any more what the male people in question look like, feel like, need of me, want of me, intend, or anything else. They should not be in a female only space. We've tried this. It does not work for all females. It is not the job of females to enable males at their own expense. If you want to and consent to you crack on, and I'll be glad for you. But go do it in a mixed sex space and have some respect for other females as well as the males.

Why di they need the staff cordy

Is there something about mixed sex changing rooms that requires them to be supervised?

What is it

I've posted one well researched study @Cordyceps but lmgtfy :

www.independent.co.uk/life-style/women/sexual-assault-unisex-changing-rooms-sunday-times-women-risk-a8519086.html

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-6124077/Ninety-cent-sexual-assaults-public-swimming-pools-happen-unisex-changing-rooms.html

www.iwf.org/2020/03/05/sexual-assault-in-gender-neutral-bathroom/

I find it very surprising that women are advocating for this. Either these people aren't really women, or they have no understanding of men whatsoever.

www.spyequipmentuk.co.uk/air-freshener-camera-dvr-hd/

Would you notice this in a changing room? There are plenty others on that site.

I see people have posted links to evidence. I am not 100% comfortable with mixed swimming changing village but what can I do? I want to swim and this seems the only option nowadays. And the cubicles are not as robust as I would like. I don't take off my costume in the shower. But I see women who do and they wander around with just a towel. I could not do that. I do feel more comfortable when staff are about.

@Cordyceps

I wish we would talk about one thing and not bring everything else into it. Staffed, mixed-gender changing rooms with cubicles where people are changing tops or bottoms and at most stripping down to their underwear, with other people right nearby and staff keeping an eye on things, are not remotely the same as an unstaffed changing area at a sports hall or a swimming pool where people strip down to full nudity and depending on the time of day or how busy the place is, it could very easily be that no one is in shouting distance.

That is not what we're talking about here, we're talking about the changing rooms at Zara, which have in my experience never had less than 30,000 people milling about at any given time.

You are talking about a different scenario, though. The changing rooms being discussed were for women, and flimsy curtains combined with communal changing area. Women enter a women’s changing room, expecting it to be for women. They have made that decision based on the information to hand. Most would not be comfortable to then see men in that changing room.

I’m sure if changing rooms were individual cubicles, with full height doors and locks, plus suitable supervision, the thread wouldn’t exist.

But Zara et al won’t do that because it’s a very expensive refit.

You’re making an argument over a situation that is far away from the situation being discussed, and in line with your own more liberal comfort zone.

[quote BoreOfWhabylon]An unimpressed Editor-at-large of the MoS was also there

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10275757/CHARLOTTE-GRIFFITHS-facing-dilemma.html[/quote]
yeah, no, dont read that rag

@Cordyceps
You have no right to give my rights away. I would not be ok to have changed in this situation. Neither would my 13 yo dd. And why are you discussing lockable doors when there were no doors but flimsy curtains?

Cordyceps there are loads of women on here as well as tens of thousands on the mail site telling you it does matter to them, that their privacy, dignity and safety is important. Why do they not count? Why do you think you can give away their rights?

@DoubleTweenQueen my liberal comfort zone? Respectfully, you don't know me, or my politics. You might be surprised if you did. The one thing I will say is that I try to think about things from a realistic and logical standpoint, rather than from what the general feeling or perception is.

Interestingly, I am actually physically afraid of open changing rooms and I don't use the (female-only) ones at my gym. It's located in a hotel and I change in the public toilets right next to reception if I'm swimming, and shower when I get home. This is because I was sexually assaulted by a group of girls in the changing rooms at my all-girls' Catholic school who held me down and pulled my top up and my pants down to see if I had breasts and pubic hair yet. I have a physical fear response to groups of teenage girls in public that I had to overcome through therapy - I still feel it, but I can at least function and not have a panic attack over it.

People fear things for different reasons, and the places you think are safe (like female-only changing rooms at a fucking girl's school) often aren't.

And in the time I took to type that (which I might add wasn't fun, or easy) I've got five comments saying WhY do You WANt to GiVE AwAY mY RIGGGGHTs. Like, honestly, have a real conversation instead of spouting lines you heard somewhere else. Try to be a human instead of a walking political strapline for five minutes of your life.

There is another thread on here about a male chaperone in a girls changing room. So many posts about girls needing safe spaces to get changed, men shouldn’t be in female changing rooms etc
I’m sure most of those mothers posting would say those of us on this board on TERFS

[quote Cordyceps]@DoubleTweenQueen my liberal comfort zone? Respectfully, you don't know me, or my politics. You might be surprised if you did. The one thing I will say is that I try to think about things from a realistic and logical standpoint, rather than from what the general feeling or perception is.

Interestingly, I am actually physically afraid of open changing rooms and I don't use the (female-only) ones at my gym. It's located in a hotel and I change in the public toilets right next to reception if I'm swimming, and shower when I get home. This is because I was sexually assaulted by a group of girls in the changing rooms at my all-girls' Catholic school who held me down and pulled my top up and my pants down to see if I had breasts and pubic hair yet. I have a physical fear response to groups of teenage girls in public that I had to overcome through therapy - I still feel it, but I can at least function and not have a panic attack over it.

People fear things for different reasons, and the places you think are safe (like female-only changing rooms at a fucking girl's school) often aren't.[/quote]
None of that changes how you are not dealing with the point in hand.

I'd like to see a campaign where women go into shops like Lush, Zara etc, fill their baskets with goods they would normally have purchased, photograph the basket and send to appropriate HQ/Twitter with a tagline like #thisiswhatIwouldhavespent or #lostmybusiness etc

I still fail to see how opening up changing rooms to men means it's safer.

It doubles the risk surely?

You now have dodgy men and dodgy women in the space .

@Cordyceps

I just got back from the states and shopped at a few places where the changing rooms weren't gendered. It was literally 100% fine and not even remotely an issue. You actually do the changing of clothes behind a door. What are you actually worried about? This is a genuine question. Is it that you think someone will enter your cubicle and see your underwear, or that they will physically attack you? The doors lock, and the staff keep track of which ones are in use. If someone did try to contravene this system by trying doors themselves or, I don't know, trying to climb under, then the shouting of the victim would be heard immediately and the other people queueing along with the staff would do something about it. I actually felt safer in a crowded, mixed-gender changing area with lots of people around then I would have if it were some dimly lit "female only" curtained space in some far corner of the store. If there was some sort of raging violent sexual psychopath with a penis who wanted to take a break from trying on miniskirts to sexually assault someone, well, that wouldn't happen in a staffed and busy changing area, and if a non-staffed changing area existed, they certainly wouldn't be fazed by a "women's changing room" sign.

Honestly there are actual problems and issues to worry about, this isn't one.

Behold a man has arrived to share his manly view. And add things not in the story or relevant to the story.

The reporter had to be in the communal area, in her bra, because all the cubicles were occupied - because these two males were taking up two of them.

You are not posting in good faith @Cordyceps. I will not engage with you further and I would urge other women to do the same.

It seems to me that the obvious solution is to make the male changing rooms unisex. That way, the actual women can get changed as normal in women only changing rooms and those who want to pretend to be a woman can go to the male one and say, "hey, I'm a woman in the unisex changing area". Win win

So you've been abused and are afraid but you've got over it so all women should get over it. (in a way that benefits males, who you don't require to get over anything or make any kind of reciprocal gesture).

And you say nowhere's safe so why worry about it? You might as well be more unsafe, accept it and be ok with whatever happens to you.

You do you. Good for you.

But yes, you don't get to consent on behalf of other females. I'll gladly applaud your superiority in being willing to overcome your traumas in order for male people to be able to take more than their share and oppress females, I'll clap your bravery and male centricism (because it isn't inclusivity when it's only male centred), and I'll hold your coat.

But you go do it all in mixed sex spaces as in line with your choice. Female people set their own boundaries. And in consent, no always trumps yes.

@Cordyceps

And in the time I took to type that (which I might add wasn't fun, or easy) I've got five comments saying WhY do You WANt to GiVE AwAY mY RIGGGGHTs. Like, honestly, have a real conversation instead of spouting lines you heard somewhere else. Try to be a human instead of a walking political strapline for five minutes of your life.

Ah.. there it is

Took a while to be fair

Yes.

Always interesting when we get to the 'someone obviously told you to say that, female people don't have real feelings/interests/beliefs/thoughts of their own or inner lives'. It's usually combined with a belief that anything females do manage to think about revolves around males and is all to do with males. 'Cos obvs, what else is there for the silly things to think about?

Good gracious! This is ridiculous. If we remove boundaries and safeguards and a child, young girl, woman is assaulted, spied upon or suffers any loss of dignity this is in you. You want to make it nice and comfortable for men to confidently walk into a female only space. I was assaulted in a unisex changing room when I was 11 years old. There were other people around. He came into my cubicle through the curtain and used my hand to masturbate him. He wasn’t a man in a dress he was a middle aged father who had his own children. No body batted an eyelid, no body was watching him or questioning why he was there so he took advantage of the situation as it was a unisex changing room. I was terrified and never made a sound. It was normal for him to be there so I didn’t do anything. So please don’t make it easier for these predators to have unfettered access to vulnerable people.

And it’s not necessarily through fear that I’d rather not share a changing room with men. It is my choice, and my modesty. But that probably is rubbish and meaningless to say, unless to the manager of the Marble Arch store considers me to be of Middle Eastern origin, ffs.

And it’s the instant moving of goalposts - sure, make the changing room a free-for-all, just let me know in advance and I won’t go there. It’s the suspension of choice and trust that is a nonsense.