Zara - male bodies in female changing room

[BoreOfWhabylon]

An unimpressed Editor-at-large of the MoS was also there

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10275757/CHARLOTTE-GRIFFITHS-facing-dilemma.html

I'm a woman, and I still think that the SPECIFIC situation of mixed-gender changing rooms in a busy, staffed store doesn't present a real risk of sexual assault to anyone.

So what? That's one specific store, in a busy area. We are talking about wholesale policy but doesn't take into account these individual circumstances.

Most women don't want it. What's in it for them. Seriously.

Can you even answer that??

[quote Cordyceps]@FindTheTruth I'm a woman, and I still think that the SPECIFIC situation of mixed-gender changing rooms in a busy, staffed store doesn't present a real risk of sexual assault to anyone. Because they don't. They may make people uncomfortable and they may be unsuitable for people who are very modest for religious or personal reasons but they do not present a physical danger. I don't necessarily agree with literally everyone else in this thread that a private business needs its minimum wage staff to police the sex of the people using changing rooms when no actual danger is present (and those of you talking about cameras, well, what about the male staff who work there, should they all be fired? Because that's who would be more likely to be installing and monitoring spy cams, not male customers who just pass through).

It's really weird that you're calling me a man.[/quote]
Not really, since it's quite odd that anyone should be arguing that consent, privacy, dignity, safety and the right to have boundaries for other females isn't really a justifiable thing and doesn't matter, largely because their even talking about it gets in the way of male people being able to do exactly what they want. If they're arguing that and they're female, it gets even odder.

@Theeyeballsinthesky

It’s really eye opening how much saying no to male demands upsets ppl whereas saying no to women is just an everyday occurrence

It's eye wateringly predictable.

But you might not get raped, but they might not want to look at your underwear, but they might not be fetishists, but so might the other men who work there, but women do it too, and my lived experience tells me that you should just put up with it.

Cordyceps

What's in it for women?

Liberty’s - yes - it’s been like that for ages. I was bursting (I usually avoid public loos) and went to the ‘ladies’ (on some back stairs - so out of the way) and there was 2 or 3 cubicles and a disabled one. The sink was communal.

Also the lights were out in the staircase so they were dim (and like usual fancy blocks, just plain concrete back stairs). So the mixed sex loos were off the beaten track on a dark back staircase.

So of course the women and girls queued for the other cubicles - most men wandered in, looked shocked then apologised and turned tail. One aggressive and grumpy man shoved last us all, grumbling - and went into the disabled loos (he looked fine - you never know) and slammed the door.

There was a member of staff waiting too - she did utter apologies to the queue of women when the men came in.

He was greeted with the death stare by the queue when he got out though.

I got onto that website that lists loos and told trek that this loo was unisex and they ought to note which ones were.

It sucks. I suspect Selfridges are the same (may say ladies but who is going to challenge a man?). Don’t know about Harrods.

Cordyceps

What's in it for women?

cross post @Datun

[quote Cordyceps]@FindTheTruth I'm a woman, and I still think that the SPECIFIC situation of mixed-gender changing rooms in a busy, staffed store doesn't present a real risk of sexual assault to anyone. Because they don't. They may make people uncomfortable and they may be unsuitable for people who are very modest for religious or personal reasons but they do not present a physical danger. I don't necessarily agree with literally everyone else in this thread that a private business needs its minimum wage staff to police the sex of the people using changing rooms when no actual danger is present (and those of you talking about cameras, well, what about the male staff who work there, should they all be fired? Because that's who would be more likely to be installing and monitoring spy cams, not male customers who just pass through).

It's really weird that you're calling me a man.[/quote]
So you're saying women's and girls' discomfort doesn't matter?

Good to know

And I have to also point out that my periods are of epic proportions now - I’m like Lady McBeth no matter how careful i am. Yeah I’m thrilled to be scrubbing my bloody hands (occasionally soaking blood off clothes) in a mixed sexual bog...

@Datun

I'm a woman, and I still think that the SPECIFIC situation of mixed-gender changing rooms in a busy, staffed store doesn't present a real risk of sexual assault to anyone.

So what? That's one specific store, in a busy area. We are talking about wholesale policy but doesn't take into account these individual circumstances.

Most women don't want it. What's in it for them. Seriously.

Can you even answer that??

Why is this just about the risk of assault and not the privacy and dignity of women, especially if you consider the religious element.

Its discriminatory.

@Datun I don't know what you mean by this repeated statement "what's in it for [women]. Like, I get what you're saying in that you think most women would prefer single biological sex changing rooms (which I don't necessarily agree with - the women in the busy mixed-gender changing rooms at Uniqlo and at other places I've been don't seem bothered, but I didn't interview them about it or anything). That's fine, vote with your money and write to corporate leaders and let them know how you feel. If it's actually true and you're right that the majority of women want this, get them to join you and be the change you want to see in the world.

Or do you actually mean that this should be legislated, and that single-sex changing rooms should be required by law, and that the minimum-wage staff should challenge people who appear to be male in the women's and female in the men's? Should there be training on this? What if people refuse, or what if the staff get it wrong?

I'm genuinely asking, what outcome do you want? How do you see it being implemented? It seems like an impossible situation to me but maybe I'm missing something obvious here.

@FindTheTruth

cross post *@Datun*

😁🍾

What's remarkable to me is how people can't immediately even contemplate such a question, much less answer it. I can't wait to see what the actual answer is.

I suspect it's going to be something along the lines of why should there be anything in it for women 🤣🤣

In their own changing rooms, trying on their own clothes, and spending their own money in a shop that caters to them!!

I don't think that, realistically, any woman is at real risk in the specific scenario of "man in the Zara changing rooms

You are wrong. Men with any shred of decency don't want to change in the women's changing rooms. It's embarrassing for men and they don't want women to feel uncomfortable or not safe. That leaves the other men. Who can be a risk. I don't want those men changing next to my daughter. And I find it mystifying that women are pushing for this to happen. Why? To be kind? It's not being kind. Why don't you want to defend your boundaries and those of other women? Why are you happy for men to be in there with you? You don't have to answer this. But you should ask yourself. You may have had a bad experience with women. Bringing men into this is not going to make things safer for you.

[quote Cordyceps]@Datun I don't know what you mean by this repeated statement "what's in it for [women]. Like, I get what you're saying in that you think most women would prefer single biological sex changing rooms (which I don't necessarily agree with - the women in the busy mixed-gender changing rooms at Uniqlo and at other places I've been don't seem bothered, but I didn't interview them about it or anything). That's fine, vote with your money and write to corporate leaders and let them know how you feel. If it's actually true and you're right that the majority of women want this, get them to join you and be the change you want to see in the world.

Or do you actually mean that this should be legislated, and that single-sex changing rooms should be required by law, and that the minimum-wage staff should challenge people who appear to be male in the women's and female in the men's? Should there be training on this? What if people refuse, or what if the staff get it wrong?

I'm genuinely asking, what outcome do you want? How do you see it being implemented? It seems like an impossible situation to me but maybe I'm missing something obvious here.[/quote]
No, I'm genuinely asking you what is benefit of mixed changing rooms to women?

What is it?

I'm genuinely asking, what outcome do you want? How do you see it being implemented? It seems like an impossible situation to me but maybe I'm missing something obvious here.

We go back to the good old days when women were allowed to tell men to fuck off out of their spaces

@Datun well at Uniqlo last week, the line went pretty fast, no one bothered me, and I was able to queue with my male partner and get through the queue together instead of what usually happens when we have shopped together with single- sex dressing rooms, where he got done in about five minutes and then had to stand around and wait 30 minutes for me to get through the female queue. So I, a woman, prefer the mixed-gender system. It's faster and more convenient and eminently safe for everyone involved. But I guess what I (a woman) "get out if it" doesn't count here because I don't agree with you. Funny, that.

And there's one of the near the bottom lines.

• There's no way to get the genie back in the bottle, you need to believe (please) that the days of single sex spaces are gone for females because things like male people just respecting female needs and voices is never going to happen

• yes they don't work for all females and the non-cool ones who are silly enough to have protected characteristics etc they can't get over or who want things like privacy and dignity will just get excluded and who cares about them? Inclusion doesn't include females, after all, does it?

[quote Cordyceps]@Datun well at Uniqlo last week, the line went pretty fast, no one bothered me, and I was able to queue with my male partner and get through the queue together instead of what usually happens when we have shopped together with single- sex dressing rooms, where he got done in about five minutes and then had to stand around and wait 30 minutes for me to get through the female queue. So I, a woman, prefer the mixed-gender system. It's faster and more convenient and eminently safe for everyone involved. But I guess what I (a woman) "get out if it" doesn't count here because I don't agree with you. Funny, that.[/quote]
That's got nothing to do with it. That's about provision.

two "masculine looking men" appeared behind her when she was in her bra in the female changing room of Zara.

Single-sex exemptions in the Equality Act 2010 already apply

Reading with intrigue

I must admit when I asked that question I was not expecting the answer to be well I can't tackle the sexism of too few female changing rooms, so I'm going to advocate to abandon them all together.

So interesting. The whole 'just lie down females, it's over, you lost long ago' keeps being trotted out, but if it was true, who'd dedicate their Sunday so busily to trying to convince them?

If it was true, female people just talking to each other about it wouldn't be threatening and wouldn't need someone rushing to convince them to shut up shut up shut up please shutup.

But I guess what I (a woman) "get out if it" doesn't count here because I don't agree with you. Funny, that.

So it's works for you because you have a male chaperone with you and it enhances your shopping experience.

What about the women and girls (like my daughter 😡) that don't and they are in their on their own, undressed, when the men stroll in. Including your male partner.

I hate to say this, but that sounds extremely selfish to me.

So interesting. The whole 'just lie down females, it's over, you lost long ago' keeps being trotted out, but if it was true, who'd dedicate their Sunday so busily to trying to convince them?

Perhaps they haven't seen that the top comment under that article has a whopping 23,000 likes.

That's an awful lot of customers.

@EricCartmansUnderpants

But I guess what I (a woman) "get out if it" doesn't count here because I don't agree with you. Funny, that.

So it's works for you because you have a male chaperone with you and it enhances your shopping experience.

What about the women and girls (like my daughter 😡) that don't and they are in their on their own, undressed, when the men stroll in. Including your male partner.

I hate to say this, but that sounds extremely selfish to me.

I don’t have a male chaperone wtf. That’s incredibly insulting and not remotely what I said. Why can’t you make your point without insulting another woman? It’s like you think that the only women who are real and who count are the ones who agree with you down to the last detail.