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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Feminism: chat

Original poster

Zara - male bodies in female changing room

483 replies

BoreOfWhabylon · 05/12/2021 04:35

An unimpressed Editor-at-large of the MoS was also there Grin

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10275757/CHARLOTTE-GRIFFITHS-facing-dilemma.html

OP posts:
Cordyceps · 05/12/2021 11:20

I just got back from the states and shopped at a few places where the changing rooms weren't gendered. It was literally 100% fine and not even remotely an issue. You actually do the changing of clothes behind a door. What are you actually worried about? This is a genuine question. Is it that you think someone will enter your cubicle and see your underwear, or that they will physically attack you? The doors lock, and the staff keep track of which ones are in use. If someone did try to contravene this system by trying doors themselves or, I don't know, trying to climb under, then the shouting of the victim would be heard immediately and the other people queueing along with the staff would do something about it. I actually felt safer in a crowded, mixed-gender changing area with lots of people around then I would have if it were some dimly lit "female only" curtained space in some far corner of the store. If there was some sort of raging violent sexual psychopath with a penis who wanted to take a break from trying on miniskirts to sexually assault someone, well, that wouldn't happen in a staffed and busy changing area, and if a non-staffed changing area existed, they certainly wouldn't be fazed by a "women's changing room" sign.

Honestly there are actual problems and issues to worry about, this isn't one.

KittenKong · 05/12/2021 11:20

Minimum wage Saturday staff. Who is going to take on two huge lads with attitudes of absolute entitlement? Not worth the argument/loss of jobs (bosses more likely to side with the men) or hassle.

jewel1968 · 05/12/2021 11:22

I suspect most women would be ok with a female presenting feminine male in female changing room? Likely you would not know they are male and if you did suspect you could not be sure. I think the real concern comes when the individual is obviously male.

I swim a lot and use mixed changing rooms. I am not bothered but it needs a couple of things to make it comfortable.
It needs staff present preferably both sexes. And it needs good locks on changing cubicles. I do occasionally see a man wandering around naked which could be accidental but I do wonder if something else is happening - that's where the staff intervene.

EricCartmansUnderpants · 05/12/2021 11:24

Cordyceps

Not all changing rooms have floor to ceiling doors. Many just have curtains. Or an open space. I wouldn't want men getting undressed next to my daughter. I'm surprised, if you are a woman, that you would think this is ok.

stingofthebutterfly · 05/12/2021 11:26

All I see in this is women let down by women.

Irrespective of whether these men were trans or not, why did they say it was ok for the men to be in the changing room, and not do anything when questioned?

FlyingOink · 05/12/2021 11:26

This is a really crappy policy that puts the onus on the lowest paid - probably female - staff members, possibly on insecure contracts, to manage the behaviour of potentially aggressive, volatile men.

This, one hundred percent. It's totally unfair on the staff. Remember police don't even come out to shoplifters unless they've stolen over £150 worth of stuff. Some aggressive man wants to come in every single day and leer at women and try women's clothing on in the women's changing room and not buy anything ever? What are the staff going to be able to do about it? Who's going to back them up? The equally vulnerable and only slightly less badly paid manager? Their toothless union? The unavailable police? Private security guards their company choose not to pay for?

Shop staff are vulnerable, it's bad enough for the customers but I can see why staff are too frightened to challenge these men. It's not about a lack of backbone, as pp have suggested, it's about a lack of backup.

EricCartmansUnderpants · 05/12/2021 11:27

suspect most women would be ok with a female presenting feminine male in female changing room?

What? A feminine presenting male is still a male? Whats the difference? I don't see why a feminine presenting man changing next to my daughter is any safer than any other man. What is it you think is different about this situation?

jewel1968 · 05/12/2021 11:27

@cordyceps I think there is evidence that more assaults happen in mixed changing. The key is staff present but to be honest in my swimming pool mixed changing rooms the staff are thin on ground and the door locks are flimsy or broken (and yes I have complained). There is a Uniqlo I use with mix changing but staff member present so I feel safe. And it's been like that for years.

RedToothBrush · 05/12/2021 11:28

@ChattyLion

Unfortunately though with unisex facilities men have access and poor tip to leave spy cams so that isn’t failsafe either. And lockable cubicles in vicinity of men is giving an opportunity they don’t have in a single sex supervised changing room.

We need to stick up for single sex female culture and campaign for our own changing rooms with no men allowed. It’s worked reasonably well for decades.

I actually think we need to campaign to say calling them women's is misleading.

If they chose to go unisex, then the liability falls on the store. They know unisex are a risk. And customers don't like and it will affect sales.

They know labelling as womens but conning women that its single sex flys below the radar.

They would soon invest in changing rooms and policy which wouldn't leave them as open to problems...

Whatwouldscullydo · 05/12/2021 11:29

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.news4jax.com/news/2016/05/03/dozens-of-women-report-target-voyeur-suspect/%3foutputType=amp

Yeah its worked out great in the states...

Cordyceps · 05/12/2021 11:30

@KittenKong

If they flagged them as unisex (generally they are just vaguely called ‘changing rooms’) then women wouldn’t use them. As it stands, women are tricked in reality because they assume the changing room on the lingerie dept is a ladies only changing room.
That is not my experience at all. Most people do not give a flying rat's ass if the changing rooms are unisex, as long as there is a cubicle door with a hand-turn lock to keep others out until you are finished. Even if there are only curtains, (most) people are not worried about being sexually assaulted in a space with cameras (cameras around the entrance to the dressing room area not in the cubicles themselves) and staff within shouting distance because that is VANISHINGLY unlikely to happen. If they are worried, they are worried about being briefly seen in their underwear by accident.

Yes, it's possible there are rare psychopaths who would barrel in and try to attack someone regardless of cameras and staff. Having a "females only" sign outside the changing area wouldn't stop them.

jewel1968 · 05/12/2021 11:30

@EricCartmansUnderpants my point is you would not know they are male. Or you could not be sure.

EricCartmansUnderpants · 05/12/2021 11:31

Unisex with proper rooms and floor to ceiling doors is one thing. Just letting men go in the women's where cubicles just have a flimsy curtain is not ok. Have people forgotten how to assess and identify risk?

OrangeBlossomsinthesun · 05/12/2021 11:32

I translate staff materials for Zara and they have a specific section about not being "transphobic" so this doesn't surprise me at all.

Clymene · 05/12/2021 11:32

I'm afraid you're talking out of your arse @Cordyceps. Unisex changing rooms put women at far greater risk of sexual assault.

fairplayforwomen.com/unisex-changing-rooms-put-women-in-danger/

EricCartmansUnderpants · 05/12/2021 11:33

jewel1968. But if they're male they shouldn't be in there even if they think they might get away with it. Although I think most people are able to spot a male, whatever it is that they are wearing.

Cordyceps · 05/12/2021 11:33

[quote jewel1968]@cordyceps I think there is evidence that more assaults happen in mixed changing. The key is staff present but to be honest in my swimming pool mixed changing rooms the staff are thin on ground and the door locks are flimsy or broken (and yes I have complained). There is a Uniqlo I use with mix changing but staff member present so I feel safe. And it's been like that for years.[/quote]
What evidence? Not being snarky, genuinely curious. I've heard lots of people talk about the "risk" of changing room assaults but never heard about a single one that's actually made the news (that I have seen) much less any kind of study with evidence indicating this is a regular occurrence.

Whatwouldscullydo · 05/12/2021 11:34

Is assukt the bar?

Cos I just posted you a link.

Videoing OK then?

notacooldad · 05/12/2021 11:34

Seriously,we need to just tell them to get out ,why are we putting up with this
Who is the 'we' in this?
Personally I wouldn't challenge after seeing all the shit that is thrown to people who do.
If you ask them to leave they would just laugh in your face at best.
I have no idea how to change this situation but it is messed up for sure.

KittenKong · 05/12/2021 11:39

Just because some women are cool with it now (would they have been happy as a child/teen or as an elderly woman or if they end up with sight issues or other disabilities - be cool with their teenage daughters changing alongside strange men?) doesn’t mean they can disregard other women’s concerns or that they won’t change their minds after the horse has bolted.

LowlandLucky · 05/12/2021 11:39

I am happy to be a bigot then

KittenKong · 05/12/2021 11:39

It’s not bigoted though is it? These men need to take this up with the ‘bad men’ in the men’s changing rooms then shouldn’t they?

TreXX · 05/12/2021 11:40

It's not just about risk of being attacked though.

It's about having the right to feel comfortable away from the male gaze.

Some women may feel ok about having men around while they're in various states of undress and yes, most men are fine, but after a lifetime of bullshit from creepy ass men who have humiliated me, objectified me, degraded me from the age of 12 I don't want to have to deal with them when I'm vulnerable.

And men have been known to put spy cameras wherever women and girls' bodies are likely to be seen.

So your friend 'Tasha' may be a lovely trans woman, your dad 'Jake' may be a sweetheart but pervy 'Bob' and misogynist 'Dave' are also at large in these circumstances. And I'd rather they weren't.

Far more women are upset at opening our spaces to males than there are trans people who get upset about not being allowed wherever they like. Why don't women matter?

#nothankyou

Cordyceps · 05/12/2021 11:41

I wish we would talk about one thing and not bring everything else into it. Staffed, mixed-gender changing rooms with cubicles where people are changing tops or bottoms and at most stripping down to their underwear, with other people right nearby and staff keeping an eye on things, are not remotely the same as an unstaffed changing area at a sports hall or a swimming pool where people strip down to full nudity and depending on the time of day or how busy the place is, it could very easily be that no one is in shouting distance.

That is not what we're talking about here, we're talking about the changing rooms at Zara, which have in my experience never had less than 30,000 people milling about at any given time.