Penn’s Lia Thomas breaks 200/500 Free records in meet with Princeton, Cornell

[Helleofabore]

USA women’s freestyle swimming records were broken this weekend!!!

To all those who keep using the ‘scale’ argument to justify inclusion of males in female sport, tell us again how it takes more than one male competing in female sport to significantly and negatively impact that sport?

I am very happy to hear your well thought out and evidenced reasoning.

swimswam.com/penns-lia-thomas-breaks-200-500-free-records-in-meet-with-princeton-cornell/

Penn’s Lia Thomas blasted the number one 200 free time and the second-fastest 500 free time in the nation on Saturday, breaking Penn program records in both events. She swept the 100-200-500 free individual events and contributed to the first-place 400 free relay in a tri-meet against Princeton and Cornell in her home pool.

Sounds wonderful until you realise that for their first three years competing in the competition, they competed as a male.

twitter.com/coachblade/status/1465517693386121217?s=21

Coach Linda Blade’s tweet says :

Well of course women’s records are being smashed!

Lia competed as male for first three years in #NCAA.

This is not right!

We need to return to #SexBasedSports!

#SexNotGender to preserve fairness for female athletes.

There have already been studies to show that male and female swimmers experience different drag conditions due to their physiological differences. If swimmers start to surgically modify their bodies then this brings in a whole new level of whether / how this changes the level playing field.

I don't think having a mastectomy should matter. There are flat chested women, after all. It doesn't change your hips and skeleton.

As pointed out up thread there were no points to be won at this meet, whether that is the reason for the much reduced speed of a certain competitor from their times at earlier meets , we'll never know. However, it is always easier to go slower than than you are capable than go faster..

So true. This is exactly the same bullshit that trans athletes Andraya Yearwood and Terrry Miller pulled in Connecticut a few years ago with high school track. Slowing down to let girls win a race here or there so they could whine "cis girls are stronger than we are." Ditto Rachel McKinnon aka Veronica Ivy, etc.

This is interesting--
swimswam.com/yale-dominates-ivy-league-double-dual-meet-with-penn-and-dartmouth/

"Thomas kicked off her racing on Saturday with a 1:48.73 to win the 200 free. The swim was Thomas’ 2nd-slowest 200 of the season so far, only faster than the 1:51.96 she swam at a dual meet with Brown in November. Notably, that 1:51 200 free came as part of the grueling 1000 free/200 free double, after swimming a 9:48 in the 1000. Although Thomas’ time Saturday could be classified as an “off” swim, the way she split the race seems to indicate otherwise. She swam 26.08 and 28.12 on the first 2 50s. Thomas then sped up on the back half, splitting 27.14 and 27.39, for a 54.53 on the 2nd 100 – almost an even-split swim.

She then went on to finish 6th in the 100 free, swimming a 52.84, which clocks in as her slowest 100 of the season by over a second. Thomas finished out the day with a 4:57.20 to win the 500 free. That swim stands as her slowest of the season by 3 seconds, and it’s 23 seconds slower than her season best of 4:34.06."

Yes, I would say he was coasting.

@IvyTwines

FWIW, leaving aside the issues of prizes, cash, scholarships and so on I can totally see why a female-to-male transboy or transman might want to carry on being in the company of women in a contact sport, changing room, toilet and so on, and someone with a female body who identifies as male or non-binary but doesn't take opposite sex hormones or have surgery carry on in their original sport category. In something like football I'd imagine a mastectomy, but not hormones, wouldn't confer a competitive advantage either, but in swimming and some other sports it may. The Amazon warriors of legend supposedly cut one breast off to improve their archery.

Tangent alert!

They didn't. It's based on a false etymology: nataliehaynes.com/journalism/3618

We have loads and loads of surviving vase paintings of amazons and they're all emphatically bilateral. As, incidentally, is Artemis, Goddess of the hunt, often portrayed with a bow.

I've done a fair bit of archery, including with a Robin Hood style long bow. Twanged my wrist and elbow lots (lousy technique). Never threatened a breast.

If anything, I'd suspect the scarring would impede the ability to draw a bow. That's if the surgery was survived. Which would have been pretty risky. If it had happened, which all the evidence is it didn't.

No idea of the impact on swimming.

@PrincessNutella

I don't think having a mastectomy should matter. There are flat chested women, after all. It doesn't change your hips and skeleton.

It matters if it can be demonstrated that it confers an advantage because pressure will come onto other swimmers to do the same.

Personally I think the sporting authorities need to nip this in the bud. If we get to the point where competitive sport allows cosmetic surgical bodily modifications that might confer an advantage, then we are moving onto very dodgy ground.

Obviously a swimmer who has had a mastectomy which was medically necessary should not be excluded. But cosmetic surgery (including any and all procedures involved in transitioning) which might confer advantage should not be allowed.

Not that the authorities are particularly likely to step in, although it’s entirely possible that the sex of the competitors might have an influence. It wouldn’t particularly surprise me if this was banned first.

From my time as a swim parent, my understanding is that it would make a difference. Swimmers are ideally ‘long and lean’. Body shape matters a lot and it is well recognised that relative performance of swimmers will vary during puberty. My assumption is that a flat chest would be an advantage in a sport where races are won by fractions of seconds.

Females suffer less wave drag at the surface than males, but more total drag when submerged.

IF breast removal reduced times even slightly, then we'd have seen it for years.

From certain countries, at higher level events.

No way back in 80s would E Germany, Russia etc not used this advantage.

IMO-

*PP point about scarring is a good call. Surgical scars of the larger type have a variety of things that make them not like strandard skin. I have some 10 inch ones from childhood surgery. Just different and can't see desirable at all for sport person.

• My guess although considered one. Is that surgery of this type impacts underlying tissue, tendons, muscle. Nerves. Blood supply?

No idea for mastectomy, but with incisions that go into body not just skin deep, things like that go on. Maybe not with breasts. I'll check. Breast tissue isn't just in breasts on surface though I've got a feeling. Will check.

• IF tissue removed involves below skin level body. Again I'll check. Only know my experience. Childhood surgical wounds didn't totally heal inside for years. I'd say about 8 or 10.

*The swimwear now looks like v squashes breasts down and that's not massive surgery.

• If worked sure would have been happening. I suspect there may be rules about this, not specific but general about this sort of thing for major events. I'll check IOC.

*And just thought. Wouldn't loads of other things have breasts removed for reasons that are more, obvious if you like?
Eg running, gymnastics, that sort of stuff?

Plus.
If started to be seen even a little like not one woman but another and another.
Huge public outrage, shock, anger. No doubt about it.
Also no doubt immediate blanket ban.

Just thought, silly thought.

If this stuff was allowed wouldn't male swimmers all have foot implants to make like sideshow Bob?!

And female ones as well obv.

Cyclists could have huge implants on top of head to be over line quicker.

Sprinters could have springs implanted in feet.

Etc!

Yes have foot stretchers to make feet webbed. And hands.

First search was Olympics surgery athletes.

After scrolling through pages of results all related to trans athletes,

I added mastectomy and bingo.
Other methods to stall breast growth used and also reductions.

'According to ESPN magazine, gymnasts push themselves to the 'brink of starvation' to avoid developing breasts and a host of professional athletes have spent a lot of money to surgically reduce them.

First link plenty more if anyone wants to learn more.

www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-2360175/amp/Breasts-threatening-athletes-careers-revealed-gymnasts-push-brink-starvation-avoid-developing-athletes-spend-thousands-surgically-reduce-them.html

'For the modern athlete, the question isn't whether breasts get in the way -- it's a question of how to compete around them', the magazine reports.'

Sprinter had cancer and double mastectomy, qualified Olympics.

(Awesome woman).

wapo.st/3Gnfwik

Hope this works. My first attempt at a Washington Post share token.

Washington Post with a major article on Lia Thomas. Reasonably balanced and comments are generally clear that they should not be on the women’s team.

@Needmoresleep

wapo.st/3Gnfwik

Hope this works. My first attempt at a Washington Post share token.

Washington Post with a major article on Lia Thomas. Reasonably balanced and comments are generally clear that they should not be on the women’s team.

How disappointing from the Washington Post:

Thomas has shattered school records and has posted the fastest times of any female college swimmer in two events this season.

Thomas is not a female swimmer.

Thanks for posting that Needmoresleep. Interesting - that's one of the most balanced articles I've seen in a major American paper. Agreed also about the definition creep on 'female'. Woman just isn't enough any more.

I've done a fair bit of archery, including with a Robin Hood style long bow. Twanged my wrist and elbow lots (lousy technique). Never threatened a breast.

How lucky you are then.

I have twanged my breast a number of times and it was very painful.

Several excellent female archers at my club wear breast protectors.

This is a clear rebuttal to an editorial from a transitioned female swimmer, Lucas Draper, in swimming world mag.

www.swimmingworldmagazine.com/news/guest-editorial-defense-of-lia-thomas-rang-hollow-and-missed-point-of-controversy/

To the point. Stop using emotional manipulation to allow males to access female sport. Stop ignoring the evidence we already have.

I thought this was very clear. (LD = Lucas Draper)

No offense would be taken if somebody said: “Don’t put the F1 car into the NASCAR race.” Why would it be any different with human bodies? For LD to pretend that reference to an athlete’s biological blueprint is deeply offensive is disingenuous in the extreme. This is a conversation that we must have to preserve women’s sports!

The rebuttal is written by awesome, clear-sighted coach Linda Blade.

Sorry Betty, I should have mentioned that.

Reading the editorial that Coach Blade is responding to though is disheartening. Another female selling out sport for other females because they, ‘LD’, is now a ‘man’.

To be clear. I mean that LD is fully immersed in the extreme belief that Thomas has no biological advantage any longer because that is the narrative from extreme trans activists.

Ultimately any male transitioning to female or vice versa 'officially' is taking drugs. This alone should preclude them from competing. Setup their own races fine, but drugs have no part in sport.

The ftm swimmer is simply presenting as man so imo should compete in the womens since they are a woman. Whilst I find it shocking that anyone who doesn't need to has a masectomy, I agree with others that most other swimmers are flat chested and/or the swim suits squash breasts down. I would be surprised if this gives any advantage.

Lastly there is a reason that the qualifying times for girls and boys differ. Interesting that they are slightly faster for girls pre-puberty. After puberty the times for males are cut a lot, for girls they are actually hardly change because there is no hormone boost that supports harder training and the ability to build muscle etc.

Anyway it's very interesting that this has hit swimming, I had hoped it wouldn't as it makes it so clear how unfair it is.

Interesting that they are slightly faster for girls pre-puberty.

That will almost certainly not be the case - it's a statistical effect that girls start their puberty growth spurt earlier than boys, so for a particular narrow chronological age band, girls are more developed.

Scottish girls’ national squad qualification times for distance events (400m+) are faster than the boys for age 11, but by age 12 the boys times become slightly faster.

Read the Linda Blade article. Tried the original that it was responding to and had to stop. It was so poor. Maybe the word 'mean' in the US doesn't carry the connotations of a kid complaining that it does for me. And maybe saying 'sorry ladies!' to 'transgender females' isn't meant to sound as needlessly provocative from absolutely every angle as the way it comes across.