Penn’s Lia Thomas breaks 200/500 Free records in meet with Princeton, Cornell

[Helleofabore]

USA women’s freestyle swimming records were broken this weekend!!!

To all those who keep using the ‘scale’ argument to justify inclusion of males in female sport, tell us again how it takes more than one male competing in female sport to significantly and negatively impact that sport?

I am very happy to hear your well thought out and evidenced reasoning.

swimswam.com/penns-lia-thomas-breaks-200-500-free-records-in-meet-with-princeton-cornell/

Penn’s Lia Thomas blasted the number one 200 free time and the second-fastest 500 free time in the nation on Saturday, breaking Penn program records in both events. She swept the 100-200-500 free individual events and contributed to the first-place 400 free relay in a tri-meet against Princeton and Cornell in her home pool.

Sounds wonderful until you realise that for their first three years competing in the competition, they competed as a male.

twitter.com/coachblade/status/1465517693386121217?s=21

Coach Linda Blade’s tweet says :

Well of course women’s records are being smashed!

Lia competed as male for first three years in #NCAA.

This is not right!

We need to return to #SexBasedSports!

#SexNotGender to preserve fairness for female athletes.

But yes, I agree, the whopping hypocrisy is sickening.

I also can't help wondering which changing rooms Henig uses. I bet it's the women's (which is fine as Henig is female), but presumably Thomas also uses the women's so we are back to the usual "men's changing rooms" and "non-men's changing rooms" and women just shut up

Interesting times over two consecutive meets. Team title might be quite apt " Swimming and Diving team"

@Helleofabore

I get the argument about the mastectomy and water resistance. But how do you deal with a woman who has had a double mastectomy for life saving purposes not gender identity. It would be a difficult policy to get right I would think.

As Henig identifies as male and presents as male, and has opted to have surgery that both makes Henig look more male and gives Henig a competitive advantage against female shaped bodies, Henig should really be swimming with males.

(Correction - is likely to give them a competitive advantage)

The trouble is, IvyTwines, that if you reverse that argument:

As Thomas (for example) identifies as fe male and presents as fe male, and has opted to have surgery that both makes Thomas look more fe male and gives Thomas a competitive dis advantage against fe male shaped bodies, Thomas should really be swimming with fe males.

The argument made for Thomas to swim with women is that Lia is now disadvantaged against men.

I don't disagree with you; I hate the general acceptance that women should just suck it up as trans people, both men and women, are allowed to choose what benefits them as an individual. I just think we need to be careful about demanding that women who identify as men should fuck off and compete with them as it can be turned around to say that men who identify as women should compete with women.

@TurquoiseBaubles I should have clarified, I meant by the 'sporting rules' currently being used in the USA! The situation with Henig really highlights what a mess this situation now is.

It's similar to the situation with Eddie Izzard, female pronouns and all that these days but getting a very nice job playing a man in a current Netflix series, and this in an actor climate where you are now supposed to 'be' whatever you say you are and dress as, and get pounced on if you're not. Were any biological women considered for Eddie's Netflix role?

As Henig identifies as male and presents as male, and has opted to have surgery that both makes Henig look more male and gives Henig a competitive advantage against female shaped bodies, Henig should really be swimming with males.

And this is where I disagree with you.

Henig should, like everyone else, swim with their sex. That is the entire point.

Females who have not had testosterone or any other performance enhancing compete with other females. Regardless of their gender ideology. Otherwise, it would be a hypocritical stand to take the other direction.

@Helleofabore

As Henig identifies as male and presents as male, and has opted to have surgery that both makes Henig look more male and gives Henig a competitive advantage against female shaped bodies, Henig should really be swimming with males.

And this is where I disagree with you.

Henig should, like everyone else, swim with their sex. That is the entire point.

Females who have not had testosterone or any other performance enhancing compete with other females. Regardless of their gender ideology. Otherwise, it would be a hypocritical stand to take the other direction.

Again, I should have clarified in my original post, I meant by current USA rules!

Ahhh. I see. Based on gender feelings …. Got it. Yes, I agree. Inconsistent application and competitively expedient for Henig.

Similarly, maybe Eddie Izzard shouldn't be taking a role off a male actor if Eddie now identifies as female, going by the 'rules' currently being used in the acting industry.

So both transmen and transwomen can legally swim on a women's team. If that isn't the very definition of having it both ways, I don't know what is. And Henig was demonstrating to the world that they consider themselves male by pulling down their swimming costume and revealing their lack of breasts at the end of the swim. Breathtaking arrogance.

FWIW, leaving aside the issues of prizes, cash, scholarships and so on I can totally see why a female-to-male transboy or transman might want to carry on being in the company of women in a contact sport, changing room, toilet and so on, and someone with a female body who identifies as male or non-binary but doesn't take opposite sex hormones or have surgery carry on in their original sport category. In something like football I'd imagine a mastectomy, but not hormones, wouldn't confer a competitive advantage either, but in swimming and some other sports it may. The Amazon warriors of legend supposedly cut one breast off to improve their archery.

Remember that although Henig won, her times are not significantly faster than the other woman. She won by a fraction, whereas Thomas won by a lot (when trying their hardest).

What is unbelievable is that both Thomas and Henig are allowed to complete in the same race. If eligibility is based on biology, then Thomas is a man; if eligibility is based on gender identity then Henig is a man. They can't both be women!

Yes, there's no logic here.

However if Henig has not taken testosterone and the surgery doesn't give them any advantage, they should be allowed to compete in a women's race.

Funny how Lia needs to have her gender "affirmed" or she'll be traumatised yet Henig seems fine with it being...not.

@HPFA

Yes, there's no logic here.

However if Henig has not taken testosterone and the surgery doesn't give them any advantage, they should be allowed to compete in a women's race.

Funny how Lia needs to have her gender "affirmed" or she'll be traumatised yet Henig seems fine with it being...not.

Interesting* how the considerations also split down the performance in their own sex class divide & whether it would be in the athlete’s interest to switch teams.

• Meant ironically in the no shit Sherlock sense.

Summary: No female swimmer is faster than Lia Thomas.

You are incorrect here. Thomas broke the Ivy League college record, not the national records which are compared below.

100 freestyle: Lia Thomas 49:42 - NCAA Women’s record 45:56 held by Simone Manuel

200 freestyle Lia Thomas 1:41:93- NCAA Women’s record 1:39:10 held by Missy Franklin

500 freestyle Lia Thomas 4:34:06- NCAA Women’s record 4:24:06 held by Katie Ledecky

1,650 freestyle Lia Thomas 15:59:71 - NCAA Women’s record 15:03:31 held by Katie Ledecky

I think you will find the poster clearly meant in the Ivy League for the races Thomas broke records for.

I don't see it's that complicated.

Set aside gender ID.

-A female who has had a double mastectomy swims female.

-A female who is having testosterone therapy, T is a performance enhancer so can't swim female as T advantage.

-Here the proposal that I iirc UK sports bodies agreed jointly comes in. Male category becomes open. No fairness issues there. Or I think they said if viable, open category added to existing two.

• Males swim with males. Irrespective of any surgery or medication.

• Again changing male category to open, or 3rd open category would be helpful I think.

Why TM with women?
Obvious surely. And if no T why not? Female who has had breasts removed.

Why TW with women?
Well that's the cause of massive disagreement obviously.
And where the reasons given are not related often to what happens in practice.
Massive example.
If it's about being excluded from sport... (!)
Then why across all things with 2 separate categories.
Is 3rd category a hard no?

With sports I think it's a mix of:

• Not fancying being with blokes. Due to fear of physical harm (at organised sports club, team etc?)

But I reckon mainly because just doesn't fancy it even if they all aok because just wouldn't be comfy as not how a male is 'supposed' to be.

This applies also in general to plenty gay men, bisexual men, men who are v short, or body shape not like how man 'should' be...
Etc.
And same goes for the reluctance felt by stacks of women as well.

-3rd space not acceptable means other reason go with women.

-Some off the top of my head.
*Asserting dominance, enjoy women uncomfy and not able really to show it let alone say it
*Enjoy the fawning so brave, be my friend, you look amazing etc from some
*V likely to be star of team, applauded, centre of attention you're amazing!
*Contact sports can steamroll through other players
*Feeling of evidence/confirmation on identity
*Can't ignore the getting changed stuff

I have seen plenty of situations (broad not just sport) where transwomen are v unhappy when another TW comes along and then are 2.

That's also interesting.

@barleybadminton

Summary: No female swimmer is faster than Lia Thomas.

You are incorrect here. Thomas broke the Ivy League college record, not the national records which are compared below.

100 freestyle: Lia Thomas 49:42 - NCAA Women’s record 45:56 held by Simone Manuel

200 freestyle Lia Thomas 1:41:93- NCAA Women’s record 1:39:10 held by Missy Franklin

500 freestyle Lia Thomas 4:34:06- NCAA Women’s record 4:24:06 held by Katie Ledecky

1,650 freestyle Lia Thomas 15:59:71 - NCAA Women’s record 15:03:31 held by Katie Ledecky

I don’t think holding up a mediocre male to three of the greatest female swimmers of all time is the gotcha you think it is.

I think we are again seeing the ‘but they haven’t beaten ‘all’ the female swimmers, so what is the matter. Just let them compete, it is not hurting anyone argument.

While ignoring the fact that even competing means a female has lost their opportunity to swim. And despite not being the best in the world, or the USA, they are still effectively performance enhanced thanks to their biological advantages - that of being a post pubertal male.

So, does a Tour de France cyclist with a power assisted bike deserve to be cycling in the event? Even if they don’t win and don’t break any records?

Still ok though, right?

Nothing to see here.

The fact that OBVIOUSLY men having advantage physically in sport is at group level/s.

One female beating one male does not negate that FACT.

Even though for some it's handy to pretend it does.

@Helleofabore

I get the argument about the mastectomy and water resistance. But how do you deal with a woman who has had a double mastectomy for life saving purposes not gender identity. It would be a difficult policy to get right I would think.

It would be a very troubling development, if shown that mastectomy does improve performance. It wouldn’t be long before pressure was brought on high performing women to have breast reduction or mastectomy in countries where winning matters more than human rights.

It would be equally devastating for women’s sports if women began to have surgery in order to win.

So many things are being messed up by the ongoing agenda.

The amazing Ross Tucker (a qualified and knowledgeable sports scientist as opposed to our visiting self identified expert in so many things detrimental to women) had this to say about Lia and swimming:

This is a volatile situation that will only get worse & expand. It’s happened because those in charge have ignored the science (& often the law), and failed to protect women’s rights. But instead of fixing it, they bow to threats and advise those directly affected to stay silent

Lia is only achieving this level of success because Lia is swimming against women and thus is cheating.