Transwomen in womens sport: advice sought..

[TraumatisedinTwickenham]

I’ve name changed as this may be outing.

As a hobby I play a team sport. I play for a womens team in a womens league.
We played against a team recently which had two trans women in the tram. Both well over 6 ft and faster, stronger than the women on my team.

They were both in the ladies changing room before the game. I wasn’t changing as I had arrived already in my sports gear but there are open showers in there and I certainty wouldn’t have felt comfortable showering in knowing that there was a trans woman in the space.

I’m really quite traumatised about it. I thought a womens league was inherently a single sex league but this doesn’t seem to be the case here. I have thought about going to the governing body of the sport but noticed that their website has an interview with the club for which the team we played represents as part of LGBTQ+ history month.

Incidentally, both of the trans people were very pleasant friendly people, not that this is really relevant, why wouldn’t they be. But it doesn’t change the fact that anyone who has been through male puberty has an undeniable advantage over women. I just don’t think that they should be participating in a womens team in a womens league but don’t know what the actual legal position is.

I was really upset (unexpectedly so) during the game and now half my own team thinks I’m a bigot..

I just don’t know what to do.

Yes, transwomen should be excluded from playing on the team meant for female humans, just as men are excluded. They are excluded from the female team as they are male.
It doesn't matter if it is elite or lower level, just because you only play for fun, it doesn't mean you do not have the same rights to single sex teams as other people do.
And where do you think the elite players come from? Right, the lower levels. But if girls stop because they don't stand a chance against male people, then you will have no more elite players. Unless like the IOC you let male people play elite female level as well....

Would you rather everyone on this board agreed with you? That there should be no discourse at all? I’m not arguing that men/TW should be allowed in rape crisis centres or women’s prisons (on which I’m sure we would agree). I’m suggesting that we should tolerate their presence in a game of recreational hockey.

No problem about including male people in mixed sex recreational sport. Big problem including male players in a female team and expecting female players to share communal showers and changing rooms with them. Moreover, it is unreasonable to expect female players who are expecting to compete against other female players to suddenly be confronted by s male player both on the girl and in the changing rooms.

To use a sporting metaphor, you should play the ball, not the man

Can I suggest you should apply this to yourself, bear? Or does “be kind, tolerant and shut up” only apply to uppity women who won’t be compliant?

Here you are accusing women of intolerance.

engaging in a campaign of exclusion and intolerance.

Here you are equating women’s objections to men in their sports to racism.

I'm unconvinced by the argument that people won't speak out because it's considered un-PC or whatever. For example, plenty of people have no difficulty about immigration, or whatever the current political fixation is

Here you are accusing women who want to protect their sports, that they have been playing for years, of intolerance again, this time “petty”.

It's the difference between holding genuine concern for the integrity of women's spaces, and simply wanting to exclude TWs from as many social spaces as possible (see also the Parkrun thread, which interesting appears to have been quietly expunged). There's a point at which this place tips into petty intolerance, and it's been crossed here.

Here you are telling women that even though it’s the rules that have been unfairly changed, it’s now up to them to go and restart building women’s sport from the ground up.

And if the OP and her GC friends want to set up a natal-women-only league, then there is no law against that

You have barely made a single post that didn’t have some insult, dismissal or sneer in it. The fact that nobody here agrees with your insistence that women must shut up and accept men in their sports is nothing to do with this being an echo chamber. It’s because most of the arrogant people arguing for that are wholly unable to hide how much they despise women.

@DialSquare

’m not arguing that men/TW should be allowed in rape crisis centres or women’s prisons (on which I’m sure we would agree). I’m suggesting that we should tolerate their presence in a game of recreational hockey.

Genuine question. Do you think that Men who do not identify as Women should also be tolerated in the Women's team in a game of recreational hockey?

If the women in question are happy with it, then 100% yes. If they aren’t, then no.

Same as my view on the OP’s position. The critical point is that her teammates and the opposition were ostensibly fine with it.

I’m suggesting that we should tolerate their presence in a game of recreational hockey.

Why? When it's a single-sex game/league.

Why? When the OP makes it clear that the TW are more aggressive

Why? When many posters on here have said mixed-sex games are rougher & more violent?

Why? when the OP enjoyed her game. Why should she be made to feel uncomfortable.

Why? Why are you so dismissive of the OP's hobby?

Same as my view on the OP’s position. The critical point is that her teammates and the opposition were ostensibly fine with it.

And if that is the case they should be playing as mixed sex team rules in a mixed sex league. Anything else is cheating. Mixed sex rules exist for a reason.

@DialSquare

’m not arguing that men/TW should be allowed in rape crisis centres or women’s prisons (on which I’m sure we would agree). I’m suggesting that we should tolerate their presence in a game of recreational hockey.

Genuine question. Do you think that Men who do not identify as Women should also be tolerated in the Women's team in a game of recreational hockey?

I'd also be interested in the answer to that.

Do you think there should be a Male team, and two mixed sex teams but with different rules?

@DialSquare

Do you think there should be a Male team, and two mixed sex teams but with different rules?

And no female team?

Indeed titchy. This is the impression I'm getting.

I’m happy to call that a coordinated campaign of ostracism. You’re not boycotting the club or the league , you’re refusing to have anything to do with trans people. That is ostracism and it is repellent transphobia.

El oh el.

I have been told before by TRAs that if I come up against such a situation in my own sport, that I should leave.

You can now telling women that they don't have a right to withdraw consent to play?

Think this through. You are saying that participation on sport is compulsory? This is not PE and I don't need a note from my mum to leave

@DialSquare

Do you think there should be a Male team, and two mixed sex teams but with different rules?

It’s up to the participants involved. People can set up and run whatever sports and whatever leagues under whatever rules they want.

This is not PE and I don't need a note from my mum to leave

It’s up to the participants involved. People can set up and run whatever sports and whatever leagues under whatever rules they want.

Except when women want one all to themselves. Then you spend hours on the internet arguing that a couple of TW on a single sex womens team is fine and that any woman wanting a single sex team should leave the existing womens team and go away and create a new one.

@PurgatoryOfPotholes

I’m happy to call that a coordinated campaign of ostracism. You’re not boycotting the club or the league , you’re refusing to have anything to do with trans people. That is ostracism and it is repellent transphobia.

El oh el.

I have been told before by TRAs that if I come up against such a situation in my own sport, that I should leave.

You can now telling women that they don't have a right to withdraw consent to play?

Think this through. You are saying that participation on sport is compulsory? This is not PE and I don't need a note from my mum to leave

Of course I’m not saying it’s compulsory to participate. And if you want to organise yourselves to cleanse your club of trans people, then that is legal and your prerogative.

@titchy

It’s up to the participants involved. People can set up and run whatever sports and whatever leagues under whatever rules they want.

Except when women want one all to themselves. Then you spend hours on the internet arguing that a couple of TW on a single sex womens team is fine and that any woman wanting a single sex team should leave the existing womens team and go away and create a new one.

But even by the OPs account, her teammates were happy for the TW to be involved? Should they be excluded based on a single dissenting voice?

I do often think trans activist positions are reminiscent of children who haven't been taught how to play nicely yet, and this is no different. I've lost count of the times I've told kids, "if you treat Jessica/Jamie badly, s/he will refuse to play with you tomorrow. It's only a game if everyone's having fun, and J wasn't having fun. Why was that?"

Child : "because I said J had to do whatever I said"

Of course I’m not saying it’s compulsory to participate. And if you want to organise yourselves to cleanse your club of trans people, then that is legal and your prerogative.

Not the club, just the single sex team that does not apply to them. Trans people can play in the mixed sex team or the single sex team that matches their sex.

Of course I’m not saying it’s compulsory to participate. And if you want to organise yourselves to cleanse your club of trans people, then that is legal and your prerogative.

"Cleanse".

For the love of human rights legislation, don't abuse terms with connotations of genocide.

But earlier you said that the entire league should be agreeing to rule changes to allow more players on each side? The league hasn't been consulted on becoming mixed sex so why should it become so simply because a few players seemed to be happy? As you have rightly suggested the whole league should be democratically consulted.

Or don't you think that anymore?

@PurgatoryOfPotholes

Of course I’m not saying it’s compulsory to participate. And if you want to organise yourselves to cleanse your club of trans people, then that is legal and your prerogative.

"Cleanse".

For the love of human rights legislation, don't abuse terms with connotations of genocide.

Sorry, wrong word, point taken. Not my intention, I promise.

Should they be excluded based on a single dissenting voice

Yes. Because the single voice will be excluded from their own sex team if not. Do you genuinely not care about that?

I don't think anyone has an issue with trans men who aren't on testosterone continuing to play on womens teams!

But it's such a double standard!

Because:
"Transwomen are women, and therefore find it massively upsetting and triggering to play sport in the men's. They also have no biological advantage against other women so it's fine for them to play in the women's team. And mens/womens sport should definitely be organised based on how people feel rather than biology."

BUT:
"Transmen are men, and yet they somehow don't find it upsetting or triggering to play sport in the women's team. And it would be wrong to exclude them from the women's team, because all of a sudden we've decided that even though they feel like a man, biology does matter after all. And maybe they might be unsafe playing on the men's team, or not strong enough to cope, even though we agree that males have absolutely no advantage over females in sport."

To clarify, I would never ever seek to exclude a transman from women's sport. It's just drives me nuts that they try to have it both ways.

@PurgatoryOfPotholes

Of course I’m not saying it’s compulsory to participate. And if you want to organise yourselves to cleanse your club of trans people, then that is legal and your prerogative.

"Cleanse".

For the love of human rights legislation, don't abuse terms with connotations of genocide.

Yes, I found that choice of word concerning as well.

I’m happy to call that a coordinated campaign of ostracism. You’re not boycotting the club or the league , you’re refusing to have anything to do with trans people. That is ostracism and it is repellent transphobia.

Now I'm certain that you definitely don't know what ostracism means. Or transphobia. You're also a bit shaky on your understanding of the phrase "refuse to have anything to do with".