Transwomen in womens sport: advice sought..

[TraumatisedinTwickenham]

I’ve name changed as this may be outing.

As a hobby I play a team sport. I play for a womens team in a womens league.
We played against a team recently which had two trans women in the tram. Both well over 6 ft and faster, stronger than the women on my team.

They were both in the ladies changing room before the game. I wasn’t changing as I had arrived already in my sports gear but there are open showers in there and I certainty wouldn’t have felt comfortable showering in knowing that there was a trans woman in the space.

I’m really quite traumatised about it. I thought a womens league was inherently a single sex league but this doesn’t seem to be the case here. I have thought about going to the governing body of the sport but noticed that their website has an interview with the club for which the team we played represents as part of LGBTQ+ history month.

Incidentally, both of the trans people were very pleasant friendly people, not that this is really relevant, why wouldn’t they be. But it doesn’t change the fact that anyone who has been through male puberty has an undeniable advantage over women. I just don’t think that they should be participating in a womens team in a womens league but don’t know what the actual legal position is.

I was really upset (unexpectedly so) during the game and now half my own team thinks I’m a bigot..

I just don’t know what to do.

Well done @Truthlikeness

@TofuonToast
How do you know that England Hockey are reviewing their trans inclusion policy? Do you know of a specific contact at England Hockey, which a player could write to in order to encourage them to prioritise safety over inclusion? I would happily write that letter if there's a chance it might make a difference

I’d have to check back through my emails

I know because they told me

@sharksarecool

Athletes come up through clubs and onto national international etc. So every female hockey player in the world needs a say? Well that's not going to work!

Why not? The government regularly runs public consultation. It would have been a perfectly doable for England Hockey to consult all of its registered clubs - which in turn could have consulted their own players - to get a picture of women's attitudes. But they didn't. Instead they got lobbied by GIRES and changed the regulations to allow transwomen into female sport.

It's still perfectly legal and reasonable for individual clubs to decide that, even though England Hockey allow transwomen to compete in the women's game, that they as a club won't allow TW onto the women's team or into their changing rooms. It's also perfectly reasonable for an individual player to decide that they don't want to play on or against a team with transwomen, and move to a lower team or different club.

You think it's perfectly reasonable to have every single women's hockey player in the WORLD agree on the rules???

Or did you misread?

@TofuonToast
If you find the email and details then please do PM me. Looks like they're still not consulting the players or clubs, just having another little think about it.

Will do - just searching now 👍

You think it's perfectly reasonable to have every single women's hockey player in the WORLD agree on the rules???

The whole world - no.
The whole country - yes, definitely.

All hockey in the country takes place under the umbrella of England Hockey, so literally every female player in the country is registered with them. They have a list of clubs, and a list of players. They regularly consult on other things such as what could be done to improve grass-roots hockey, thoughts on potential rule-changes, etc. So yes, they could 100% offer every female hockey player in the country the opportunity to have her say on this.

@TofuonToast

By the way - I’ve played mixed hockey and it’s shit for the women. Men hog the ball, women get injured FAR more frequently than single sex games and are playing against men who aerial the ball all fucking game which is terrifying. I don’t WANT to play mixed sex hockey with even less safeguards than there are now thanks!

I agree - I play very little mixed football any more, only extremely social, low level. Pretty sure I cracked a rib a couple of years ago after getting sent flying by a 6 foot+ guy who barely blinked.

When we play inter club mixed friendlies the team captains give the men a pre match bollocking to not be too rough/no aerials/no ball hogging not because the women and girls are snowflakes (we’re highly competitive sportswomen) but because they KNOW the physical advantage of men and a careless man can do a woman or girl serious damage. I don’t consent to playing with men so I play single sex sports. I DON’T CONSENT !

It's certainly more reasonable to ballot English hockey players than it is to let the leagues "slide" (to quote thedancingbear) into allowing male players without discussion. If women only find out about the rule changes on the morning of the first match that they play against a team that is mixed sex, I'm hard-pressed to think of a less democratic way to effect such a change.

On threads about sport, over and over there are comments saying things like-

It's fine for amateurs not the same as professional.

If it's just a hobby then really why would it matter.

Above, if a woman doesn't like being on a mixed sex women's team she can move to a lower level.
why a lower level? Why would lower levels not have TW in them? That's a fascinating comment and in really really interested to know the thinking behind it.

Amateur/ local/ weekend/ casual is for fun so competition/winning isn't really the point.

And more like that.

Constantly. And I have started to think. That this comes from an extremely widespread view of women's sports. Very deeply entrenched certainly here. Sometimes conscious sometimes subconscious.

Ideas around stereotypes of women and girls, and about the nature of sport. Eg

Women/ girls aren't naturally/ supposed to be competitive. Determined. Determined to win. To feel brilliant when they beat others esp in physical things. To really love being part of an all female team, working together, sharing the highs and lows, encouraging each other, and all with the same desire to thrash the opposition. As individuals. Not supposed to be so focused on yourself, your success, confident in your abilities, working incredibly hard towards your own achievement and success.

All of the above have plenty of backup in everyday standard ideas about what women and girls should be like.

And then of course. Women's sport itself. The again deep seated social view that sport is for men. (Apart from gymnastics, synchronised swimming, ice skating when it's the performance side not things like speed skating.. the things which have the costumes and the makeup and the permasmile and while incredibly difficult focus there's a focus on costume and they're more like a dance performance). There is no male synchronised swimming at Olympics despite demand. Interesting that.

Things said esp by men like.
Why bother
Not important
Boring
Rubbish
The men are superior why watch the inferior teams.

And of course sports tribalism the way it's described as a substitute for war.

So yeah. I think comments saying what does it matter stream from that whether those making them realise or not.

Agreed - it’s just a small thing but it drives me mad that the men’s fixtures are always advertised above the ladies no matter what time the match is or whatever. The coach says things like ‘do t worry about losing at your level’. Gah! We’re all so competitive- as if not more competitive than the other teams and we have such a wonderful supportive atmosphere constantly laughing supporting joking playing … no wonder others look on with envy or some with disdain

They’re happy at the moment. After all it’s only one opposition team and 2 trans women.
Imagine if, in the womens league, we came up against a team comprising of 11 trans women.
I all but guarantee people would be unhappy.
Whether anyone would speak up is a different matter.
It’s an unlikely scenario I grant you. But being unlikely shouldn’t mean they we shouldn’t protect against it.

It's not an unlikely scenario at all. It's exactly where we're heading. Living in a country which is obliterating women's sports and bullying anyone with enough sense to see what is going on makes me feel very unsafe. OP I have no good advice except as regards you OH. I doubt he know what is really happening and perhaps you can persuade him to find out. If he actually does not and still thinks you should just get over it - run.

We have women who have joined who don’t speak English as a way to connect with others. women with severe mental health issues that use sport as a relief. They would leave if it became mixed sex by stealth. This is important and I’ll fight so hard to preserve it and make sure there is a sport for other girls and women long past when I hang up my hockey stick

So, to sum up where this thread is at the moment, we have a poster who is very comfortable with the fact that a transitioned male has the option of a male team, a mixed sex team and the female team. Females who want to play a fair and safer game away from males with proven pubertal advantage have NONE, unless they go back and restart building the women’s hockey league again based on sex and sex only.

That poster is trying to shame posters who draw boundaries around maintaining safety and fairness in line with current research. Particularly those who use strong language to define their need for single sex sport and a solution to get that.

But the essence is, a poster on this thread has determined that female sport is open for any male who wishes to participate.

By the way everyone the women's rugby has been on, on Sundays and it's fucking awesome.

The athleticism, power, speed. The crowds. And we've thrashed the pants off everyone!

I always thought I just didn't enjoy team sports until more women's matches across sports being shown more. I think it was that I couldn't relate to the men playing in the same way. Which makes sense when I thought about it.

Also let’s say a separate league was set up for women only (with the imaginary resources/time/money/facilities/EH backing) Taft would take - I’d give it about a month before the knocks on the door started for inclusivity for TW because why not? If TWAW what would be the barrier that doesn’t exist now?!

@CheeseMmmm

By the way everyone the women's rugby has been on, on Sundays and it's fucking awesome.

The athleticism, power, speed. The crowds. And we've thrashed the pants off everyone!

I always thought I just didn't enjoy team sports until more women's matches across sports being shown more. I think it was that I couldn't relate to the men playing in the same way. Which makes sense when I thought about it.

Awesome! I love watching powerful women at the top of their game !

You can prob see today on catch up. We played USA and beat them 80 something- 0!!!

www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episodes/m000pjfd/womens-rugby-union

Here you go!

@TofuonToast

Also let’s say a separate league was set up for women only (with the imaginary resources/time/money/facilities/EH backing) Taft would take - I’d give it about a month before the knocks on the door started for inclusivity for TW because why not? If TWAW what would be the barrier that doesn’t exist now?!

The suggestion then is that there are 3 categories males can play in.

Female would need to be a new category built from scratch ground up. And those involved would be subject to constant accusations of bigotry, attention, challenges, complaints, threats etc.

Great. Thanks! V generous.

I don't play sport competitively or am interested in competitive sport but it breaks my heart the opportunities that are being stolen from women.

Why why why are trans women's rights way more important than woman's rights? (Ok we know the answer to this) it's so unfair and so unjust.

I feel so sad, and I am so proud of the women (and men) who can see and are not accepting this injustice - I wish you well and the best of luck op.

Even my husband is now telling me to “get over it” because I’ve been “down” since yesterday.
He just doesn’t understand.

Well why would he?

He has never been, and will never be, in the position that you are in, whether in respect of sport or anything else where biological sex matters.

He's a male - there's a reason it took the #MeToo movement for (some) men to realise that they get to take walking down the street safely for granted while women have to do a risk assessment every single time.

If this was recreational rugby, I'd have concerns. If it was top level competitive hockey, I'd have concerns. It's neither; it's recreational sport and it sounds like most people are cool with it.

I am interested in knowing exactly the experience that dancingbear has of playing hockey as a female against a male, that they can make this claim. That, in their view, there is nothing to be concerned about here!

Why is someone who as said they are male on previous threads trying to shame females from expressing the need to have a safe and fair sport to participate in by censoring their words?

Maybe this poster has access to better or more up to date research than we have read?

If so, please post it. Please post how transitioned males have lost their pubertal advantage. Their leverage advantage, their musculature advantage, their power output. Have their lungs decreased in size? Do they suffer menstrual disadvantages such as change to ligaments making them more prone to damage (particularly when playing against someone who is more powerful).

Or maybe they simply are not listening to the female hockey players on this very thread saying that they don’t enjoy playing against males because of the power and other differences. And not listening to other players saying that females should not have to be excluding themselves from their single sex teams when by there are already mixed sex teams they could play in.