#MarchWithMidwives and the erasure of 'mothers' and 'women'

[AnotherEmma]

I've been following the #MarchWithMidwives campaign because I support it. The crisis in maternity services is a disgrace. Midwives, mothers and babies deserve better.

The problem is, it's brought back all the same concerns I had throughout 2020 (when I was pregnant with DC2, gave birth and then breastfeeding). I was following my local maternity services, doulas etc on Facebook and the language was full of gender neutral shite.

Now we have a campaign which is (or should be) about the care and safety of MOTHERS, women and their babies, and the words mother and woman are fucking nowhere to be seen.

It's all "birthing families" (um pretty sure it was me who gave birth and not my family), "parents" and... my personal favourite: "service users".

JUST FUCK OFF.

I can't even challenge it because I know I'll be accused of being a TERF and derailing the main point of the campaign.

I don't suppose anyone has come across a well argued article or blog post about this, by any chance?! Because I'm too pissed off to be eloquent on the subject!

I don’t think it’s a spoof. I took a look to see if it was as bad as it sounded (it was....worse, in fact) and it looked genuine enough. All the trashy boxes ticked. They say they are researchers....I hope this is a freshers’ group’s very first go at doing a survey and it has yet to be overseen by a supervisor or tutor. That may be a crazy hope....

@KimikosNightmare, it’s an example of bundling different concepts together, in a way that confuses any participant and which gives, unsurprisingly, poor data. First rule of survey making is don’t do it like this!

Just skimmed through the survey.

Bonkers set of questions formulated by people who have the 'result' already in mind.

No thanks.

[quote tiktok]@KimikosNightmare, it’s an example of bundling different concepts together, in a way that confuses any participant and which gives, unsurprisingly, poor data. First rule of survey making is don’t do it like this![/quote]
My deleted post made it clear it was impossible to get past that question.

But is it just poorly framed due to incompetence or deliberately framed to skew the data? My money is on the latter.

@KimikosNightmare we are hoping to get a measure of people's true attitudes and investigating whether these variables are associated with each other, hopefully if people are truthful in their views we will obtain a realistic perspective on how these concepts are related.

With regards to the item in question, this is from a well-established scale that has been validated internationally. Apologies for throwing you off with it but I assure you we are not attempting to skew the data with the use of this scale.

So you are counting how many people fail to complete your survey as part of your analysis?

I do find the Vigils difficult. I agree with so much of what they are asking in the manifesto, I am a MW and this are bloody difficult at the moment, things have been gradually eroding for years and now we're on the floor. The vigils and the media coverage are important. On balance, due to the severity of the crisis i feel it more important to support the vigils than to argue the language in this instance though I am firmly in the "women" not "birthing person" camp.

I’ve just clicked on the survey link, and emailed the department at Kent Uni to complain about how badly written it is, how inflammatory the questions are, how it’s steeped in gender ideology and that the Uni should be ashamed that they produce such inept students.
I think these students should stop believing the absolute lies they are being peddled and start fact checking when they read stuff on Twitter.

[quote KentPsychMB]@KimikosNightmare we are hoping to get a measure of people's true attitudes and investigating whether these variables are associated with each other, hopefully if people are truthful in their views we will obtain a realistic perspective on how these concepts are related.

With regards to the item in question, this is from a well-established scale that has been validated internationally. Apologies for throwing you off with it but I assure you we are not attempting to skew the data with the use of this scale.[/quote]
True attitudes to what exactly?

"On balance, due to the severity of the crisis i feel it more important to support the vigils than to argue the language in this instance though I am firmly in the "women" not "birthing person" camp."

I agree with you but i just find it so frustrating (hence starting this thread).

[quote KentPsychMB]@KimikosNightmare we are hoping to get a measure of people's true attitudes and investigating whether these variables are associated with each other, hopefully if people are truthful in their views we will obtain a realistic perspective on how these concepts are related.

With regards to the item in question, this is from a well-established scale that has been validated internationally. Apologies for throwing you off with it but I assure you we are not attempting to skew the data with the use of this scale.[/quote]
I can't get past that question. I have grave concerns about the normalisation of pornography and prostitution. I am a pro- choice atheist.

Any answer I give means I have to lie. I either opt for strongly agree and lie on
2 counts (a) that I base my objection to pornography on religious grounds and (b) I am anti abortion.

Or I tell the truth about being pro- choice and lie about being anti- pornography.

Your explanation is disingenuous as your question is conflating views which have no business being conflated.

Also, Kent Psych, if you are only seeking to know 'true attitudes' (to whatever) why have you put at the end of the survey 'If you want to know more about transphobia please look at...' then give links to sites such as Mermaids. You're definitely not coming at this with a neutral stance. Anyhow, this is derailing the thread.

@OakleyStreetisnotinChelsea

I do find the Vigils difficult. I agree with so much of what they are asking in the manifesto, I am a MW and this are bloody difficult at the moment, things have been gradually eroding for years and now we're on the floor. The vigils and the media coverage are important. On balance, due to the severity of the crisis i feel it more important to support the vigils than to argue the language in this instance though I am firmly in the "women" not "birthing person" camp.

This is how I feel too. Both important issues to me, the staffing crisis needs the focus for this moment.

You're definitely not coming at this with a neutral stance

They're researching conspiracy theorists and collective narcissism, not women's experiences.

I wouldn't have even bothered to check had they not attempted to derail several threads simultaneously with the same bloody survey.

@Animood

Does anyone know how many trans men give birth each year? Do we have any data on it?

Can't be many.

Alienating all women who give birth for the sake of what could be a handful of people.

Has anyone asked trans men who have given birth if they object to gendered (ie correct) language being used. I can't imagine it's high up their list of priorities.

From what I've personally seen in a few bf and sling peer support fb groups is that a lot of women are "identifying as" non binary. In my own experience they're extremely angry about all this and get very aggressive when questioned.

Not to derail thread but the survey has been posted now in the correct place (surveys board) if anyone's interested in seeing poor survey design in action:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/surveys_students_non_profits_and_start_ups/4406676-Survey-about-your-experiences-and-views-as-a-woman-only-UK-women-7-mins-to-complete-18

Thanks @EndoplasmicReticulum!

[quote EndoplasmicReticulum]Not to derail thread but the survey has been posted now in the correct place (surveys board) if anyone's interested in seeing poor survey design in action:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/surveys_students_non_profits_and_start_ups/4406676-Survey-about-your-experiences-and-views-as-a-woman-only-UK-women-7-mins-to-complete-18[/quote]
and, rightly, deleted seeing as the people who are promoting the survey have been contacting MN posters via PM. Dodgy as fuck.

@RedDogsBeg that’s very dodgy. Not what you’d expect from genuine researchers.

I'm a mum also. And I have birth not birthing person. I. Am. A. Woman. And a mum

I’m hugely thankful for midwives, they kept me and my babies alive through very difficult pregnancies.

But pregnancy is something that only happens to women and I just can’t support removal of sex based terms for something so intrinsically linked to our sex and the discrimination we face.

I’m so sorry to all midwives on this thread but I just can’t

Woah.
I've just heard 'women and BIRTHING PEOPLE' on Woman's Hour from a woman representing midwives talking about the march yesterday. It's the first time I've heard it in the wild. I missed who she was but it really shocked me. This is madness.

@CriticalCondition

Woah. I've just heard 'women and BIRTHING PEOPLE' on Woman's Hour from a woman representing midwives talking about the march yesterday. It's the first time I've heard it in the wild. I missed who she was but it really shocked me. This is madness.

So they still said women then. What's the problem with saying birthing people when they're saying women too? Hardly erasing the word women by erm, still using the word women?! Or should we just ignore trans men?

Woah. I've just heard 'women and BIRTHING PEOPLE' on Woman's Hour from a woman representing midwives
Yeah, me too. Didn't hear too much after that as I was too busy seething; lost any sympathy I had.
Emma Barnett didn't pull her up on it, more's the pity. I suppose it was a case of pick your battles.

'People' don't give birth. Only women do. It's kinda a sex-based thing.