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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

#MarchWithMidwives and the erasure of 'mothers' and 'women'

107 replies

AnotherEmma · 20/11/2021 11:22

I've been following the #MarchWithMidwives campaign because I support it. The crisis in maternity services is a disgrace. Midwives, mothers and babies deserve better.

The problem is, it's brought back all the same concerns I had throughout 2020 (when I was pregnant with DC2, gave birth and then breastfeeding). I was following my local maternity services, doulas etc on Facebook and the language was full of gender neutral shite.

Now we have a campaign which is (or should be) about the care and safety of MOTHERS, women and their babies, and the words mother and woman are fucking nowhere to be seen.

It's all "birthing families" (um pretty sure it was me who gave birth and not my family), "parents" and... my personal favourite: "service users".

JUST FUCK OFF.

I can't even challenge it because I know I'll be accused of being a TERF and derailing the main point of the campaign.

I don't suppose anyone has come across a well argued article or blog post about this, by any chance?! Because I'm too pissed off to be eloquent on the subject!

OP posts:
NoNotMeNoSiree · 22/11/2021 23:36

And what rights is the use of the word woman and mother accurately taking away from trans people?

The right to have their trans identity acknowledged instead of insisting that that they're a woman?
They'd still get to be called their preferred term and be included, and I'd still be called and be a mother.
I wouldn't suddenly stop being called a mother just because someone else is referred to by their preferred term.

Datun · 22/11/2021 23:58

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk guidelines.

Datun · 23/11/2021 00:01

Oh, and just in case you still don't think it's men pushing this, show me all the campaigns to have the word man removed.

All the charities talking about prostate havers, penis owners, ejaculators?

All the women clamouring to get into men's prisons, changing rooms, sports?

Somebodylikeyew · 23/11/2021 00:08

@OakleyStreetisnotinChelsea

I do find the Vigils difficult. I agree with so much of what they are asking in the manifesto, I am a MW and this are bloody difficult at the moment, things have been gradually eroding for years and now we're on the floor. The vigils and the media coverage are important. On balance, due to the severity of the crisis i feel it more important to support the vigils than to argue the language in this instance though I am firmly in the "women" not "birthing person" camp.
Fine. You fight your professional crisis first, thats your prerogative. Just don’t ask WOMEN to have your backs while you throw us under that bus.
SheldonesqueTheBstard · 23/11/2021 00:16

The vigils are important. The message should be powerful.

Imagine how much more powerful they would be if the powers that be hadn’t alienated so many women with language that is so inclusive it is exclusive.

Theflamingnerd · 23/11/2021 08:33

@NoNotMeNoSiree

And what rights is the use of the word woman and mother accurately taking away from trans people?

The right to have their trans identity acknowledged instead of insisting that that they're a woman?
They'd still get to be called their preferred term and be included, and I'd still be called and be a mother.
I wouldn't suddenly stop being called a mother just because someone else is referred to by their preferred term.

Language matters. Others have made excellent and articulate points on how and why the change of language impacts women so I won't retread those. However, even if you remove all emotion from it, and look at it from a purely statistical and data collection stand point, language still matters.

ALL STATS BELOW ARE PURELY FICTIONAL, AND MEANT ONLY TO DEMONSTRATE A POINT. PLEASE DO NOT TAKE THESE AS ACTUAL REAL WORLD STATISTICS

Let's take a sample group of 100 people

  • 50 are male (henceforth referred to as men - adult human males as the group does not contain any children)
  • 50 are female (henceforth referred to as women - adult human females as the group does not contain any children)
  • Gender identity has not been recorded and is irrelevant to the study

Of the 50 women let's say 1 in 10 will die in child birth. If we changed the wording to people we can no longer accurately say 1 in 10 will die, this would now be 1 in 20. Let's take it further and base policy and allocation of funds on the collected statistics. When it comes to assigning funding to maternity services, which statistic do you think is 1) more accurate of the group using and affected by the service 2) most likely to result in funding the service? If we cannot define the group affected accurately and succinctly, everyone using the service regardless of how they identify will suffer.

So the word woman/women needs to be kept biologically accurate. No children were included in the group, so people wouldn't be an accurate term. As the issue doesn't affect men (remember it's only adult human males in that group) it's wrong to collect data based on 'people'.

EdgeOfACoin · 23/11/2021 12:05

The whole thing makes me furious. I gave feedback on being downgraded from a 'mother' to a 'birthing parent' part way through my antenatal course - told them it made me feel like no more than a brood mare and that I did not 'identify' as a 'birthing parent'.

I see some breastfeeding groups now talking about 'breastfeeding and chestfeeding'.

It is absurd. If a ftm transitioner has elected to have a double mastectomy (sorry, 'top surgery') and has no breasts, that person is unable to produce milk. That person can only feed via formula and so a breastfeeding group cannot be directly relevant to their experience. So why change the name of the group for their sake?

And if any ftm transitioners or female-bodied non-binary people* retain their breasts, undergo the exclusively female experiences of pregnancy and childbirth and choose to breastfeed their babies, why are we pretending that their breasts are called chests? It's nonsensical. (I would use stronger language about this, but fear my post would be deleted.)

*Funnily enough, there don't seem to be any male-bodied non-binary people giving birth.

As previously discussed, it is likely that this change of language has nothing to do with ftm transitioners (transmen) and far more to do with the feelings of some (not all) mtf transitioners (transwomen) who wish to de-couple the concept of woman from biology. Adult human females do not benefit from this change of language.

It is insidious, though. I'm currently trying to find a breast pump to buy. It's all very complex and the choices are overwhelming. I've read lots of articles and watched lots of videos on the subject. One article promised to help me identify the best breast pump for my needs - but then the opening paragraph talked about the specific needs of transgender people. What specific needs? A ftm transitioner seeking to express milk has exactly the same considerations as any other woman requiring a breast pump. An mtf transitioner seeking to express milk, which is apparently possible in some circumstances, is extremely morally dubious given the artificial hormones involved, and should not be encouraged (imho).

One company which is generally very good and refers unashamedly to women and mothers on its website still managed to put out an official video that referred to 'chestfeeders' alongside 'breastfeeders'.

As for midwives...

I received excellent care from my midwives when I gave birth recently. My hospital didn't use women-erasing language, for which I am grateful. I am genuinely saddened that the profession is going through a tough time. However, talking about 'birthing families' is not on.

You know how many 'birthing families' were allowed in the delivery suite at the height of COVID? - 0.

The only family member allowed in the delivery suite in June 2020 was the mother, the woman actually giving birth. Fathers, partners, older children - these members of the 'birthing family' were not allowed in.

How many male-bodied people have suffered a minor or major injury from giving birth to another human being? 0. How many male-bodied people have died from giving birth in the entirety of human history? 0.

Midwives' primary concern should be supporting women, the human females who are the only ones able to gestate and birth babies. The very name 'midwife' derives from the words 'mid' and 'wif' meaning 'with woman'.

Perhaps they should change their names to 'midbirthingfamilies' and be done with it. After all, if midwives can't stand up for mothers, why should mothers stand up for them?

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